SSM as a proxy for evil in the world

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Re: SSM as a proxy for evil in the world

Post by Harmony » 11 Nov 2013, 00:04

But I wonder...
Would legalizing their lifestyle make that any better?
Would "accepting" them make it any better?

To relate this to something else...I am so very glad that the civil rights movement took place. I truly am. But I also see how even now (again, remember that I am in the deep south), those who live around me are still "angry" about their past...and their perceived future...and their present state. It's like they can't win.
Actually I think legalizing their lifestyle would, in fact, make things better. And accepting them would make it better.

If we relate this issue to the civil rights movement, I think one reason why some people are still angry about their past, future and present state is that prejudice and discrimination is alive and well. Is has improved over time, but it is still something that is felt very keenly by minorities of many races. It is all around you. It is found in the current restriction of voting rights, racial slurs regarding our president, stop and frisk, etc.

I have good friends who are LGBT, however this is not the main focus of our conversations. I also have a child who is LGBT, and it is not the focus of our conversations. It is a big focus of mine because I love my child and I am worried about the consequences and attitudes she will have to deal with when others find out about her orientation. In church or out of church. It is also a big deal because the suicide rates are much higher for youth who are LGBT. We have lost many wonderful loving children of our Heavenly Father because of our lack of understanding and acceptance.
I am very concerned that the continued emphasis on a siege mentality surrounding gay issues is harming LGBT people in the church and out of the church, and is preventing us from becoming a Zion people.
Turintumbar, I agree with you that gay marriage/rights are being touted as a major threat to our church/country. In reality, since we are interested in families and strengthening the family, since LGBT couples will be together and have children in many cases anyway, wouldn't it be good if they could have a marriage situation which would provide more stability in their relationships and wouldn't that in turn be better for our country? Personally, I feel that if the church wants to attack something that is harming our society I think focusing on reducing pride, selfishness, greed, judgment, etc. would serve it better. Focus on loving one another and following Christs' example. I think that is one reason why I have a great appreciation for Pope Francis. He seems to be more focused on being a disciple of Christ.

I do think the current dialogue from some of our church authorities is harming our LGBT brothers and sisters and their families. It is very difficult to go and feel a part of church given the current rhetoric.

I know to many who do not have a LGBT family member or close friend it seems like this topic is being overly discussed. But from those in this minority equal rights is a very big deal, akin to the civil rights movement. When you can be fired from your job simply because of your sexual orientation, which is still the case in many states, prejudice towards our LGBT brothers and sisters is a subject that definitely needs to be talked about.

Turintumbar, I have great respect for you and your devotion to the gospel and your desire to remain faithful.

I do take hope in some of the changes that have been taking place and the attitudes of many that are changing for the better. Mormons Building Bridges also seems to be a step in right direction. The many Mormon based groups advocating for the LGBT community is very uplifting. LGBT members need to feel supported and loved, especially if they are to remain in church.

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Re: SSM as a proxy for evil in the world

Post by Roy » 11 Nov 2013, 11:21

Harmony + 1
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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Re: SSM as a proxy for evil in the world

Post by turinturambar » 11 Nov 2013, 15:15

Matthew chapter 19 brings up some thought-provoking issues both in relation to marriage, and potentially to homosexuals. The first part of the chapter includes yet another attempt by the Pharisees to trap Jesus using the Mosaic code. Jesus’s teaching here is fascinating, considering our current prevalence of divorce rates in the United States. Jesus teaches that the Mosaic code allowed for divorce, but that this was because of the hardness of the hearts of the people – “for it was not so in the beginning”. This indicates a concession for people to live a lower law of marriage, that is marrying and divorcing for any cause. In Matthew chapter 19 Jesus teaches that adultery is the only legitimate reason for divorce. Now I do not necessarily agree with that, especially when one considers abuse. So we may not have the complete law in our Scriptures.

I was listening to NPR last week, I don’t remember show I was listening to. I learned that members of the Roman Catholic Church who have civilly divorced but have not obtained an annulment from the church are not allowed to take the communion. I had no idea! Apparently there is a movement in the church to soften its stance on this. On a personal note, I have an uncle who lived in Panama and married a Panamanian woman. Like much of Latin America, Panama is largely Roman Catholic, and its marriage laws reflect this. My uncle and his wife separated, but were unable to obtain a divorce because of the laws of land. He continued to remain in Panama so that he could be around his children. (Incidentally, this on-call has become a transvestite and now lives in the United States)

This passage in chapter 19 of Matthew continues Jesus’s discussion of marriage and divorce with a somewhat cryptic passage about eunuchs. Some people have interpreted eunuch in this case to include both heterosexual men who had been castrated, those who were born with or developed a homosexual orientation, and those who choose to remain celibate for religious reasons. The church currently teaches that those with a homosexual orientation may only choose to be eunuchs “for the kingdom of heaven’s sake.”

A couple of years ago I was worshiping in the Denver Temple and my heart was heavy as I pondered my situation. As I prayed in the celestial room, I felt moved to open up the Scriptures. I opened up to Isaiah chapter 56:

1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

It is difficult for my rational mind to consider this to be a coincidence. I had completely forgotten about this experience until the eunuch passage for Matthew was mentioned. Perhaps there really is a place in the kingdom for homosexuals.

Silent Dawning: your experience in Canada is just the kind of information that can be helpful for our discussion of this issue. I am trying not to be cynical about the change in strategy that I have seen coming from Elder Oaks and Elder Cook – that is, framing the discussion of same-sex marriage in terms of freedom of religion. Again, I feel I need to be open to the idea that the church may actually be in danger of losing freedom of conscience on this issue. Where that leaves homosexuals both in and out of the church, who knows?
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 13:2‎)‎

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Re: SSM as a proxy for evil in the world

Post by Life_Journey_of_Matt » 11 Nov 2013, 16:05

turinturambar, I do think your concern is valid. And I think as SD pointed out with the Canada example, intolerance is the real problem regardless of which line you walk.

I think a lot of the scapegoating now happens as second nature for many entrenched TBMs. Sadly, it's just their go-to. Case in point, the following Facebook comment I got from a guy I worked with. This was in response to an article I liked that questioned the wisdom of extreme obedience principles.
I do think it's crucial to recognize the difference between the institution of the church managed by everyday mortals where much personal opinion and tradition is injected and the gospel doctrine as disseminated by Apostles and Prophets. For example, I hate meetings. I think a lot of stuff could be handled over email, but some old school leaders love their meetings. That is tradition. However, the Family Proclamation is not, and so to see such a large amount of members believing that someday the church will wise up and start allowing gay marriage, or ordain women is dumbfounding.
It took me about two seconds to poke numerous holes in his statements, but that doesn't take away from the fact that his sentiments are there, and they are deep-seated. Hopefully attitudes like his are dwindling in the church overall, though I'm afraid pockets will persist until the complete about-face actually happens. FWIW, you won't have to wait for me. I've got your back right now. ;)
"So oft in theologic wars / The disputants, I ween, / Rail on in utter ignorance / Of what each other mean / And prate about an Elephant / Not one of them has seen." -- from "The Blind Men and the Elephant" by John Godfrey Saxe

"The faith that stands on authority is not faith. The reliance on authority measures the decline of religion, the withdrawal of the soul." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

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