Are You a Liberal Mormon?

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mackay11
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Are You a Liberal Mormon?

Post by mackay11 » 31 Oct 2013, 09:45

Meridian Magazine used to be worth reading.

This is possibly the most disturbing thing I've read in a while and, a few weeks after Elder Uchtdorf's talk, a deep disappointment.

http://www.ldsmag.com/article/1/13489

Don't read if you get "heart burn" easily. I'm sharing so I can rant. Someone shared it on Facebook, thankfully (!!) to criticise it. Some people in the thread said they actually agreed with her.

I'm thinking of buying Joni Hilton's book so I can take a photo of me burning it and post it back to her.

Huh... rant over. Sorry.

_________________________________________________

EDIT: I'd posted these later in the thread, but I wanted to show people that we are not alone. The following are comments on Facebook when a friend shared the article. They shared it with the following comment:
It seems the American political name calling ("You Tea party people are psychopathic nuts", "You Democrats worship Obama, and he is the devil!"), has now extended to fault lines in the LDS Church. ("Let me tell you what you believe and why you are wrong!")
Was it really only a month ago President Uchtdorf said, “there is room for you in this church.” ?
Comments on the link (all from active Mormons) said:
What an idiot!
Liberal and proud! Wait is that 2 sins?
And this is why I always say, if you love your children DON'T send them to Utah or BYU.
Very, very disappointing article. I have to remind myself that if I'm going to embrace the benefits of the big tent of Mormonism that Dieter F Uchtdorf spoke about earlier this month then I have to also accept that there will be people way over the other side of the tent who I fiercely disagree with. I can't only expect people to be huddled over on my side of the tent... otherwise it would be a small tent. I embrace the diversity of thought within the church, even though I don't understand how someone reaches that perspective. I think she's wrong and I'm sad she's given a platform to preach this narrow-minded bile, but I also want her to have a place in the tent too. Perhaps one day she'll make friends with a "liberal mormon" and realise she's drawn the wrong conclusion.

I recognise that the church culture is like a huge ocean liner. It's not possible to make it do a u-turn. It can only be changed by small degrees and over the long-term. I'm rather fond of the diversity of passengers so I accept that it can't take a drastic course alteration in one direction or another at the risk of knocking lots of them overboard.

Joseph Smith said: "Our heavenly Father is more liberal in His views, and boundless in His mercies and blessings, than we are ready to believe or receive..."
Interesting, but I guess we all fit into that liberal mormon box sometimes, judge not lest ye be judged.
In the article the author has commented to say that she doesn't mean politically liberal but is using "liberal" to mean disobedient. Someone has responded, "Please don't use labels unless you know how to apply them correctly. What you describe is not liberal Mormonism but spiritual apostasy. The two are not related."
To which a reply came:
My issue is that even if she changed the 'label' it's still a very negative article. She makes the presumption that everyone should live like she does. She presumes that someone who lives to a different standard is being lazy, or justifying themselves. Perhaps she should go and reread Robinson's 'Believing Christ.' The whole diving board/degree of difficulty analogy would apply here.

I've interacted with people who would fit her description whatever label is applied and yet they are working their utmost to do their very, very best. The last thing they need is some primped and proper person who doesn't understand their circumstances telling them they're still not good enough despite all the efforts they're making. Here's a perspective she might find interesting:

"(David O. McKay) adjusted the relationship between church and member. For a full century... church members had been asked to sacrifice themselves for the good of the institution. McKay reversed that, asserting that the church was made for the members, not the members for the church. He emphasized the paramount importance of free agency and individual expression, for he understood that improvement of the parts would inevitably improve the whole. "Let them conform" was replaced by "Let them grow." He willingly discarded institutional uniformity for the higher goal of individual excellence. He pitched a wide tent and then told members of all stripes that he welcomed them to join him and build the church within it."

David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism by Greg Prince, p. 404
"Are you a Liberal Mormon?"
"Oh, yes, that's me! What did you want to tell me?"
"I'm a WHAT? I do what with CHICKENS? But I was nowhere near Archduke Franz Ferdinand!"
It has been a joy to read, and I say thank HEAVEN that articulate, measured minds are still amongst us
I read all the comments above, then read the article itself - if I say what I WANT to say I might heap condemnation upon myself - and actually I don't need to bcs I also read ALL the comments and found to my great relief pretty much ALL of them (ie the 33 that are currently there) said what I wanted to say more kindly and politely than I would have done - and still want to - good grief sometimes I despair - one must simply be glad that the church exists and thrives outside Utah and I s'pose we must just accept that there will always be souls such as this woman who just do not 'get it' .... woops I will stop before I make statements as judgemental as hers!!
These are all from Mormons commenting, in public, in their 'real name' - I'm very relieved to see this consensus.
Last edited by mackay11 on 31 Oct 2013, 12:45, edited 1 time in total.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Are You a Liberal Mormon?

Post by DarkJedi » 31 Oct 2013, 10:17

By her definition I am a liberal Mormon. And I thought harry Reid was the only liberal Mormon! :D Seriously, I think there are very few who can escape her difintion of liberal Mormon - you'd have to be keeping every commandment and never have even a shadow of a doubt about anything.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Curt Sunshine
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Re: Are You a Liberal Mormon?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 31 Oct 2013, 10:44

Some people write stupid things.

I'll take Pres. Uchtdorf (and others) over her.

Problem solved.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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cwald
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Re: Are You a Liberal Mormon?

Post by cwald » 31 Oct 2013, 10:46

I'm not surprised.

I've been hearing this said about me for nearly three years.

I think this is really what the majority of active faithful Mormons believe.

I think this gal just had the guts and the talent to express what many many devout Mormons feel and truly believe.

So much for Urchtdorf's message?

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  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Are You a Liberal Mormon?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 31 Oct 2013, 10:52

So much for Urchtdorf's message?


No. Absolutely not. No way.

In the lives of some people who wouldn't change their view if God himself slapped them and told them to change, sure. For everyone else, it needs to be said enough times that they finally get it - and there are more and more members who are getting it now that it's being said more and more.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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cwald
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Re: Are You a Liberal Mormon?

Post by cwald » 31 Oct 2013, 10:55

From NOM.
What the author of of that article appears to ignore is that for most liberal mormons, it is not a choice between being a liberal mormon or an orthodox mormon, but rather being either a liberal mormon or a non-mormon. The reason liberal mormons exist is that they love the church and (sometimes) still believe it... As a result, they try to draw the line in the sand at a location where they can reconcile both worlds.
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Last edited by Anonymous on 31 Oct 2013, 11:29, edited 1 time in total.
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Are You a Liberal Mormon?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 31 Oct 2013, 10:59

Great quote, cwald - except the part that says, "but actually think about things."

Someone can't add a line like that and expect others to see it as anything but a kick to their heads (since it really is a harsh insult and, in many cases, simply isn't true) - which only hardens their position against what is being said.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Ann
Posts: 2576
Joined: 09 Sep 2012, 02:17

Re: Are You a Liberal Mormon?

Post by Ann » 31 Oct 2013, 11:09

mackay11 wrote:
Don't read if you get "heart burn" easily.
Too late.

And it will be widely-read. Grrrrrrrr.

Liberal Mormons let you know they've gone to Europe??? Good grief. Let's add class warfare to the problems we have in the church. She reinforces every stereotype she can in her allotted space. I'll do what a poster over at NOM does:

MESSAGE TO LURKERS FROM THE COB: THIS DIVISIVE WRITING HURTS OUR COMMON CAUSE AND WEAKENS ELDER UCHTDORF'S GC MESSAGE.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

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DarkJedi
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Re: Are You a Liberal Mormon?

Post by DarkJedi » 31 Oct 2013, 11:11

Ray Degraw wrote:Some people write stupid things.

I'll take Pres. Uchtdorf (and others) over her.

Problem solved.
Good point, Ray. Pres. Uchtdorf is a member of the First Presidency of the church and spoke his words in General Conference. In most of their minds that should be considered scripture. Like you, I'll take something he says over a non-authority any day.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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cwald
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Re: Are You a Liberal Mormon?

Post by cwald » 31 Oct 2013, 11:30

Fixed the quote.

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  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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