Censorship of GC has begun.....

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Sheldon
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Censorship of GC has begun.....

Post by Sheldon » 10 Oct 2013, 10:13

So, the censorship has begun. In the RS meeting Monson said that we get love from God whether or not we deserve it.
The transcript changed it to say whether or not you “feel” you deserve it. OK, so maybe he just misread the teleprompter? He is getting old and all. But that doesn’t work here. It seems Holland quoted Monson’s line in his GC talk, and said the original line. But then again, the transcript was changed to put “you feel” in Holland’s talk. So, they both didn’t misread the teleprompter at the same place. They both meant what they said, and then the PR dept started to read the blowback on the internet and made the change.

Here is the proof:
The original Monson talk at the 15:15 mark
God’s love is there for you whether or not you deserve love

The original Holland talk at the 5:45 mark
God’s love is there for you whether or not you deserve it

The “transcript” from the Monson talk
God’s love is there for you whether or not you feel you deserve love
The transcript from the Holland talk
God’s love is there for you whether or not you feel you deserve [it]


………whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my correlation committee, it is the same.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Censorship of GC has begun.....

Post by DarkJedi » 10 Oct 2013, 10:53

Interesting. I do believe God loves us whether or not we deserve it because he loves all of us. The real surprise is that Pres. Uchtdorf's talk hasn't been edited.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Roy
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Re: Censorship of GC has begun.....

Post by Roy » 10 Oct 2013, 11:30

Please help me to understand the difference between not deserving love and not feeling that we deserve love?

The next question is whether someone can earn or deserve divine love or if it is inherent?
Sheldon wrote:They both meant what they said, and then the PR dept started to read the blowback on the internet and made the change.
What kind of blowback? Are we really so afraid of God's love being so much more expansive than we had originally supposed?
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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DarkJedi
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Re: Censorship of GC has begun.....

Post by DarkJedi » 10 Oct 2013, 11:46

One can feel he or she doesn't deserve God's love, even though in reality he or she does. I believe many people find themselves in this situation when they have sinned, especially serious sin. They don't believe God could ever love them because of what they have done. I also believe that some people don't feel that God loves them because they have not had experiences where they felt God's love, or have not recognized God's love.

I suppose if one's view of God is more like the Old Testament God as opposed to the New Testament God, one could actually believe that there are people that really don't deserve God's love. I would think (though I do not have data to support this) that many people might think Adolf Hitler, for instance, does not deserve God's love.

That said, I don't really think Pres. Monson nor Elder Holland meant to indicate that there are people who don't deserve God's love, I do think they meant it the way it has been edited to read - but I don't know that for sure.

In the interest of full disclosure, my own view of God's love is not necessarily individualized love. I do believe "God loves us so he sent his son," I do not believe God necessarily expresses love to individuals (although he may do so to some individuals).
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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mackay11
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Censorship of GC has begun.....

Post by mackay11 » 10 Oct 2013, 12:00

Isn't the second version waaaay better than the possibly misread original?

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Censorship of GC has begun.....

Post by Curt Sunshine » 10 Oct 2013, 12:48

The speakers regularly go back and compare what they prepared to what they said, and small wording changes happen quite regularly after the fact. I do the exact same thing when I summarize my Sunday School lessons here. I record my memory of what I said, and, in some cases, add details I meant to include but forgot.

I believe strongly it is an over-reaction to call this "censorship" and "blowback" - and I am quite positive the speakers would not allow anyone in the PR Dept. to edit their talks. I can't say that strongly enough. Neither Pres. Monson nor Elder Holland would allow that to happen.

I know people here are sensitive to anything that might be a negative, but, as kindly as I can put this, over-sensitivity can border on paranoia - and this is a borderline example. It. Happens. All. The. Time.

Finally, the print version is better than the original version, so I choose to believe the print version is what Pres. Monson either meant to say or wanted to have in print - and Elder Holland's reference was altered to match Pres. Monson's desire.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

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Orson
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Re: Censorship of GC has begun.....

Post by Orson » 10 Oct 2013, 12:56

To be undeserving of God's love is an impossibility, it cannot happen - so it was clearly a mistake to suggest that it could ever in any stretch be possible. The only possibility is that someone may feel undeserving - but that feeling is in fact obviously an error.
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Life_Journey_of_Matt
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Re: Censorship of GC has begun.....

Post by Life_Journey_of_Matt » 10 Oct 2013, 12:59

Orson wrote:To be undeserving of God's love is an impossibility, it cannot happen
This simple interpretation speaks to me.
"So oft in theologic wars / The disputants, I ween, / Rail on in utter ignorance / Of what each other mean / And prate about an Elephant / Not one of them has seen." -- from "The Blind Men and the Elephant" by John Godfrey Saxe

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Roy
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Re: Censorship of GC has begun.....

Post by Roy » 10 Oct 2013, 13:09

DarkJedi wrote:One can feel he or she doesn't deserve God's love, even though in reality he or she does. I believe many people find themselves in this situation when they have sinned, especially serious sin. They don't believe God could ever love them because of what they have done. I also believe that some people don't feel that God loves them because they have not had experiences where they felt God's love, or have not recognized God's love.
Thanks for the explanation DJ. It just seems that either we all deserve God's love or none of us do (for all have sinned and fall short).

I believe that they meant to say that God's love is unconditional. This seems consistent with our doctrine (if not our emphasis). I guess those statements could be read as saying that some people deserve God's love and some do not, but He loves everyone anyway the same way that he sends the rain to the just and the unjust. But....it still leaves a funny feeling in my stomach to postulate that some deserve God's love while others get it without deserving it.

Changing the wording to "Feel" actually fixes the problem from something akin to "Even if you are worthless, God still loves you!" to "Even if you feel worthless, God still loves you!"
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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Sheldon
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Re: Censorship of GC has begun.....

Post by Sheldon » 10 Oct 2013, 13:24

Roy wrote:What kind of blowback?
There is a lot of talk on other less friendly internet discussion boards about how Pres Monson said God will love us even if we don’t deserve it. This implies that some people don’t deserve God’s love. No other way to interpret it.

So Ray, or anybody else, give us an explanation of how Pres Monson could have misread his talk, or made a typo, and then Holland misread his also, or made the same typo?

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