Unchanging Marriage Doctrine

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Curt Sunshine
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Re: Unchanging Marriage Doctrine

Post by Curt Sunshine » 08 Oct 2013, 17:57

"I feel immense peace and love in this home."


Perfect summary.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Apollyon
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Re: Unchanging Marriage Doctrine

Post by Apollyon » 08 Oct 2013, 19:12

Ray Degraw wrote:
"I feel immense peace and love in this home."


Perfect summary.
This kind of summarizes my personal feelings about homosexuality. Here's the basic jist:
We've all probably heard the portrayal of Satan as the "master counterfeiter." In other words, he can't be the source of anything that's truly good and pure, but he can counterfeit (the example I always heard was pleasure standing in for happiness; something that approaches the lasting joy of happiness but is, in this case, a sham.) Therefore, in order to assume that homosexuality is inherently evil/sinful, I think you also have to make the assumption that every homosexual relationship is, itself, a counterfeit of a happy heterosexual relationship. In other words, it mimics it but never quite gets there.

So it imitates real, committed, Christ-like love for a spouse/partner, but somehow falls short. It has to be somehow more selfish, or carnal, or abusive, or something. I think this is sort of the underpinning for the justification against homosexuality, and the problem with it is that it only takes one or two contacts with people who actually are in these kinds of committed relationships to realize that they actually CAN and DO love each other, just like heterosexual couples.

I actually disagree with an earlier poster; I do believe that eventually the church will allow homosexual couples to be sealed in the temples. Frankly, I feel like once you say, "We acknowledge that you are married civilly, and we believe you are worthy individually to receive temple ordinances, and that you want to be together with your spouse forever just like this heterosexual couple over here," there is just no real argument to then say, "BUTTTTT you can't." However, I think that we're not going to see either change for several decades.

Harmony
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Re: Unchanging Marriage Doctrine

Post by Harmony » 08 Oct 2013, 19:35

Ray Degraw said: "I can believe easily that, in my lifetime (probably 40-50 years, at most), the Church will allow legally married, monogamous, gay members to be baptized and attend the temple as individuals."
I hope you are right, but I really hope it doesn't take near that long. I also hope that eventually children of gay couples can also be sealed to them. I hope these are not just pipe dreams.

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cwald
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Re: Unchanging Marriage Doctrine

Post by cwald » 08 Oct 2013, 21:52

Harmony wrote:
Ray Degraw said: "I can believe easily that, in my lifetime (probably 40-50 years, at most), the Church will allow legally married, monogamous, gay members to be baptized and attend the temple as individuals."
I hope you are right, but I really hope it doesn't take near that long. I also hope that eventually children of gay couples can also be sealed to them. I hope these are not just pipe dreams.
At this point in the game, I'm really fighting for my kids and grandkids. I have no hope that reformation will happen in my lifetime.

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  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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cwald
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Re: Unchanging Marriage Doctrine

Post by cwald » 08 Oct 2013, 21:55

cwald wrote:
Harmony wrote:
Ray Degraw said: "I can believe easily that, in my lifetime (probably 40-50 years, at most), the Church will allow legally married, monogamous, gay members to be baptized and attend the temple as individuals."
I hope you are right, but I really hope it doesn't take near that long. I also hope that eventually children of gay couples can also be sealed to them. I hope these are not just pipe dreams.
At this point in the game, I'm really fighting for my kids and grandkids. I have no hope that reformation will happen in my lifetime.

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AND, I think that is still worth fighting for. As of today, the lds path is still the best I've found. I've looked for other paths...haven't found any. I'm just a lonely panthesis apostate Mormon who hopes my kids will have a better experience with religion than I did.


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  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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Kumahito
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Re: Unchanging Marriage Doctrine

Post by Kumahito » 09 Oct 2013, 04:34

bridget_night wrote:On Unchanging Marriage Doctrine:

“God has given us a revelation in regard to marriage. I did not make it. He has told us certain things pertaining to this matter, and they would like us to tone that principle down and change it and make it applicable to the views of the day. This we cannot do; nor can we interfere with any of the commands of God to meet the persuasions or behests of men. I cannot do it, and will not do it.”

D̶a̶l̶l̶i̶n̶ ̶H̶ ̶O̶a̶k̶s̶,̶ ̶G̶e̶n̶e̶r̶a̶l̶ ̶C̶o̶n̶f̶e̶r̶e̶n̶c̶e̶,̶ ̶S̶u̶n̶d̶a̶y̶ ̶O̶c̶t̶o̶b̶e̶r̶ ̶6̶,̶ ̶2̶0̶1̶3̶ OOPS, I mean
John Taylor - Journal of Discourses, Vol. 25, pp. 309-310

Brigham Young: "Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives... I promise that you will be damned," (Deseret News, Nov. 14, 1855).

Brigham Young: "Suppose this church should give up this holy order of marriage, then would the devil and all who are in league with him against the cause of God rejoice that they had prevailed upon the saints to refuse to obey one of the revelations and commandments of God to them," (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p. 239).

I have many TBM family and friends who believe everything the prophet and GA's say in General Conference. When I was growing up, the church taught to get your own personal revelation about what was said in GC and even when a new prophet was put in to get your own confirmation. I don't hear that so much anymore. From Brother Oaks talk about marriage being only between one man and one woman and will never change, it made me wonder how these TBMormons would respond if polygamy became legal, and the present polygamy families joined the church, and the prophet said it was to be re-established in the church? Maybe this has already been talked about, but unless we can get our own personal revelation about what our leaders say, we are just like followers in a cult. Apparently, the church is saying that it will not accept gay married couples into the church even if it is legal.
I sometimes wonder if the Church's seemingly single-minded focus on sexual relationships is an over-compensation for the history of polygamy and a rebuttal to the stinging criticism the Church faced for decades over the sexual peccadillos of our founders. As we've noted here in other threads, there is often no zealot quite so committed as the convert, and the Church may be a more recent convert to the whole one-man-one-woman thing, but they've taken to it with a flourish.
"An idea that is not dangerous is unworthy of being called an idea at all."
- Oscar Wilde

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bridget_night
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Re: Unchanging Marriage Doctrine

Post by bridget_night » 09 Oct 2013, 08:01

Ray Degraw wrote:
[Admin Note: Let's focus this thread on the ideas that marriage never changes and that apostles can be wrong about things they say in General Conference.]


Thanks for sending me the correct link on polygamy Ray and for keeping this thread going with the focus you said. I really get alot out of everyone's comments. I still remember Larry King interviewing GBH and asking about polygamy and glossing it over with 'that is in the past..lets move on." The problem, like someone stated here, is that it was a big deal with no admitting the harm it did. Also, the fact that people still live this way today and you cannot ignore it. I appreciate all the comments on homosexuality as well since I have a gay son. It took God 10 years to get me to accept that He created my son as he is and to just love him.

Here is how I see the issue of Gay marriage eventually finally getting acceptance in the church. I have so many gay friends (many are lds) who are working for change in the church but have also received personal revelation in the temple that they are to have a same sex partner some day and children. Here is one example:
http://www.nomorestrangers.org/journey- ... an-answer/

Also, because there has been so much suicide of lds gay young people over what lds leaders like BKP, and Miracle of Forgiveness mistakes made, they have to reconsider this. I too have seen such love and harmony in gay couples with children in the UCC church I go to now. I still love the lds church in many ways and hope for good changes in it. It is hard to admit when you have made mistakes for all of us. Especially serious mistakes and the church is very cautious of law suits that could come about from admitting serious mistakes. We see that in the Catholic church today. Nevertheless, God is working here and will not let wrong things be unaddressed.

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