Do you believe the Apostles have actually seen the Savior?

Public forum for topics that don't fit into the other categories.
Post Reply
User avatar
SilentDawning
Posts: 7347
Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55

Do you believe the Apostles have actually seen the Savior?

Post by SilentDawning » 29 Apr 2011, 11:18

I'm curious what you think about this one. There is this underlying or implied belief that the Apostles have all seen Christ. They are called "Special Witnesses". Based on your own experiences in the Church, do you believe this is true? And is it a necessary condition of being an Apostle that you actually see Christ as some point? Or is the Special Witness concept simply open to parsing or interpreted as having symbolic meaning?
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

Old-Timer
Site Admin
Posts: 16887
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: Do you believe the Apostles have actually seen the Savio

Post by Old-Timer » 29 Apr 2011, 11:21

No. No. Yes. :D :D

and I think the "underlying" or "implied" is one of perception / hope / desire / etc. of those who want to believe that - not statements by them
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

User avatar
Andrew
Posts: 34
Joined: 11 Apr 2011, 11:20
Location: The Great Midwest

Re: Do you believe the Apostles have actually seen the Savio

Post by Andrew » 29 Apr 2011, 11:30

SD wrote:do you believe this is true?
No. I was surprised when I got to my mission to find out that many elders did believe that. It was news to me.
SD wrote:And is it a necessary condition of being an Apostle that you actually see Christ as some point?
By the way apostles are discussed in the New Testament, the answer would seem to be yes. From the modern LDS church, I'd think the answer is no.

Though some current leaders are awfully coy about their personal experiences, and seem to intimate that they have ("...through experiences too sacred to mention...").
SD wrote:Or is the Special Witness concept simply open to parsing or interpreted as having symbolic meaning?
Yeah, I think so. Though I do think that some of the Brethren are content to let members continue to believe that a personal visitation or vision of Christ is necessary to be an apostle.

User avatar
Tom Haws
Posts: 1245
Joined: 13 Jan 2009, 06:57
Location: Gilbert, Arizona, USA
Contact:

Re: Do you believe the Apostles have actually seen the Savio

Post by Tom Haws » 29 Apr 2011, 12:15

No.
None of them has seen Jesus in the superficial, temporal, and physical way that Judas saw him. In other words, none of them can tell us whether his voice was high or low, whether he was tall or short, fat or thin, blond or dark, chiseled or rounded. That part of Jesus died 2000 years ago.

Yes.
Depending on what you mean by seeing and what you mean by the Savior, yes, some of them have seen the Savior as Peter, James, Luke, John, and Mary Magdalene saw him. The greater questions are 1) how often do they walk with their gaze on him and 2) have we seen him too?

Tom
Tom (aka Justin Martyr/Justin Morning/Jacob Marley/Kupord Maizzed)
Higley and Guadalupe
Gilbert, Arizona
----
Sure, any religion would do. But I'm LDS.
"There are no academic issues. Everything is emotional to somebody." Ray Degraw at www.StayLDS.com

User avatar
cwald
Posts: 3628
Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 06:39

Re: Do you believe the Apostles have actually seen the Savio

Post by cwald » 29 Apr 2011, 12:23

No. No. Yes.
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

User avatar
Brian Johnston
Site Admin
Posts: 3500
Joined: 22 Oct 2008, 06:17
Location: Washington DC

Re: Do you believe the Apostles have actually seen the Savio

Post by Brian Johnston » 29 Apr 2011, 12:38

I'm with Tom.

I know this is a cultural legend within Mormonism. Certainly Joseph Smith and early Church leaders claimed this. My personal opinion -- most current leaders today know that they have not seen Jesus Christ in that way. The ones that "get" the symbolic or mystical aspects, they might perhaps kinda-sorta see it like Tom explained.

I think it should be the goal of all to experience this mystical experience. I think it exists in many religions, even outside of Christianity. Having Jesus Christ appear to you, and having your "calling and election made sure" (using Mormon lingo), is a major event of enlightenment for mystics in all cultures and times.
"It's strange to be here. The mystery never leaves you alone." -John O'Donohue, Anam Cara, speaking of experiencing life.

User avatar
PiperAlpha
Posts: 176
Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 05:14

Re: Do you believe the Apostles have actually seen the Savio

Post by PiperAlpha » 29 Apr 2011, 12:48

cwald wrote:No. No. Yes.
+1
“As individually and collectively we increase our knowledge, acceptance, and application of gospel principles, we become less dependent on Church programs. Our lives become gospel centered.”
Elder Ronald E. Poelman, General Conference Oct 1984

Roy
Posts: 6260
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Do you believe the Apostles have actually seen the Savio

Post by Roy » 29 Apr 2011, 15:48

I have three poor references to prove that the Apostles have seen Jesus: 1)
PH was taught by the visiting high counselor and he related a story. Pres. GBH was visiting with area SP's and after hearing the low numbers asked sadly, "How can I go to the Savior with numbers such as these?". The high counselor expressed that he, for one, takes this literally to mean that GBH had PPI's with Jesus. I share this as an example of how the SP Bridget has referenced might think that if there is anything new to be revealed, it should come from the top through the appointed method."
2) I have an insert in my scriptures that has a list of GA's that have spoken of a Christ visitation experience. I believe the last person on the list was Elder Haight. This insert was produced by some scripture insert company from Orem, Ut and sold to me from Deseret Book. How is that for a smoking gun? :twisted:

3) The talk on tape entitled "Why we believe in Jesus" by Brad Wilcox. This talk told a story about a boy who was losing a debate in his classroom about the existence of God/Jesus. When in the culmination of the debate the opposition asked him if he had ever seen Jesus, he responded - No. When asked how he could believe in something he has never seen, he said - because I know men who have seen him. The thrust of the talk was that if we believe in Jesus because we are a Christian nation, surrounded by other Christians, we have ancient Christian scriptures, we have Christian parents, Christian forefathers, and Christian upbringing - then how are we different from any other professed Christians? According to this motivational talk on tape, the answer is because we have special witnesses that have seen Him and should everything else pass away we would still be Christians based on that premise.

I acknowledge the poor sources, but this is the type of material that influenced my testimony as a young man.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

Old-Timer
Site Admin
Posts: 16887
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: Do you believe the Apostles have actually seen the Savio

Post by Old-Timer » 29 Apr 2011, 16:30

The new handbook says explictly that members should not rely on second-eigtheenth-hand stories (ok, the "eighteenth-hand" wording is mine) about what GA's said somewhere at some time :oops: That alone is fairly instructive, I think.

I agree, roy, that the "evidence" is really weak and made up generally of that type of story.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

User avatar
cwald
Posts: 3628
Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 06:39

Re: Do you believe the Apostles have actually seen the Savio

Post by cwald » 29 Apr 2011, 17:21

I would not for an instant argue that our church doesn't teach and encourage folks to believe that we have GAs who have seen Jesus personally. I just don't believe it - personally.
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

Post Reply