Book of Mormon contains the Fulness of the Gospel?

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Roy
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Re: Book of Mormon contains the Fulness of the Gospel?

Post by Roy »

SilentDawning wrote: 27 Jul 2021, 20:35 It doesn't mean that you will get exhaltation -- unlimited increase -- that is only for people who get married in the temple. That is the highest level of salvation, which is not covered in the BOM. But the BOM contains the fulness of the gospel because gives us what we need to overcome spiritual death; ie, enter the celestial kingdom.
I think that we are playing word games here. Is temple marriage/exaltation part of the gospel? Is salvation part of the gospel?
We cannot have it both ways!
If exaltation is part of the gospel and it is not found in the BoM then the BoM cannot contain the fulness of the gospel.
If salvation is part of the gospel and exaltation is the highest level or fulness of salvation and exaltation is not found in the BoM then the BoM cannot contain the fulness of the gospel.

Honest question. What would it mean if this statement was wrong or time based? Are we as a church capable of grappling with statements and ideas that the church held to in the past that are wrong (or could have been right for their time and place but are no longer accurate)?
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
Old-Timer
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Re: Book of Mormon contains the Fulness of the Gospel?

Post by Old-Timer »

The "Good News" (Gospel) according to the words attributed to Jesus and based on his ministry appears to be quite simple:

God loves EVERYONE, and he will judge his children on the content of their hearts, not any other measure humans use as ways to judge and marginalize. That extends even to the most marginalized: the lepers, the "impure" (individually or collectively or genealogically), the "sinners", the impaired, etc. That even includes "the enemies" and "apostates". This will be accomplished because God will make it happen - and Jesus is the prototypical example, since even the outcast, reviled, murdered criminal he was considered to be was worthy of being a God.

We frame it in terms of faith, repentance, baptism, and the Holy Ghost - but those things simply signal our acceptance of the Gospel / Good News.

The Book of Mormon contains all of that, even if (like the Bible) not every leader in it taught it to the same degree, so it contains the fullness of the Gospel.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

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SamBee
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Re: Book of Mormon contains the Fulness of the Gospel?

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The short answer is that BoM is salvation and the other stuff is exaltation.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
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SilentDawning
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Re: Book of Mormon contains the Fulness of the Gospel?

Post by SilentDawning »

On reviewing this, I can't see the BoM containing the fulness of the gospel without some reliance on word play or mental gymnastics. I think JS thought, when translating and promoting the BoM that F, R Bap, GoHG was all there was. It was only when he was introduced to the concept of the temple and eternal progression that the statement "the BoM contains the fulness of the gospel" started showing leaks in the bow.

In other words, the subject statement about the BoM containing the fulness of the gospel is evidence of JS making statements that conflict with later revelation.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
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DarkJedi
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Re: Book of Mormon contains the Fulness of the Gospel?

Post by DarkJedi »

SilentDawning wrote: 18 Aug 2021, 02:07 On reviewing this, I can't see the BoM containing the fulness of the gospel without some reliance on word play or mental gymnastics. I think JS thought, when translating and promoting the BoM that F, R Bap, GoHG was all there was. It was only when he was introduced to the concept of the temple and eternal progression that the statement "the BoM contains the fulness of the gospel" started showing leaks in the bow.

In other words, the subject statement about the BoM containing the fulness of the gospel is evidence of JS making statements that conflict with later revelation.
Unless Joseph was right all along and faith, repentance, baptism and the Gift of the Holy Ghost indeed really are the fullness of the gospel. I think he was right. And if that's the case no mental gymnastics needed. Our leaders have consistently said the gospel is very simple. I believe loving Heavenly Parents whose work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of their children made it that way very much on purpose. It is men who try to complicate it.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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felixfabulous
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Re: Book of Mormon contains the Fulness of the Gospel?

Post by felixfabulous »

Greg Prince has said (I think quoting someone else) that there is no doctrine in the LDS Church that has not evolved over time. When you dig in, you can see our very idea of the Godhead has evolved. The "fullness of the gospel" is no different. The BOM represents the fullness of the gospel at that time. There is a trinitarian view of God, heaven and hell and a focus on faith, repentance and baptism. No temple, no kingdoms, etc. Kirtland represented a radical shift in thinking, with the Lectures on Faith and the degrees of glory. D&C 76 does not mention temple theology or sealings. In the Lectures on Faith, we have a teaching that God the Father and Jesus are the Godhead and the Holy Ghost is their unity of thought. In Nauvoo we have a huge shift in theology with the temple endowment, plural marriage more developed and a pantheon of Gods and progress to Godhood. In Modern Mormonism, we have tried to mesh these all together and make them work in tandem as one seamless fullness of the gospel.

In the early 1900s we shifted our theology from a polygamy-centered theology to a much more streamlined theology that became more palatable to mainstream Christianity. We have continued on this trajectory, downplaying the "weird" elements of our theology that don't fit, like becoming Gods, having our own planet, etc. I think those elements are what make Mormonism interesting. However, I love the simplicity of focusing on the fundamentals of following the example of Jesus and practicing a Christian life of service, personal growth and grace in a Mormon community.
Roy
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Re: Book of Mormon contains the Fulness of the Gospel?

Post by Roy »

I agree Felix.

SD, I think that the BoM was envisioned and marketed as the "rest of the story" that the bible either left out or had been removed from the bible. The "fulness" of the gospel is in reference and contrast to the bible being incomplete. Thus the bible and the BoM together are all you will ever need. It certainly has some appeal.

However, remember the Dunkers!
Benjamin Franklin in his autobiography, quoting from the Anabaptist Dunkers wrote:“When we were first drawn together as a society,” says he, “it had pleased God to enlighten our minds so far as to see that some doctrines, which we once esteemed truths, were errors; and that others, which we had esteemed errors, were real truths. From time to time He has been pleased to afford us farther light, and our principles have been improving, and our errors diminishing. Now we are not sure that we are arrived at the end of this progression, and at the perfection of spiritual or theological knowledge;”
If we sell the BoM as the fulness then what happens when we receive further light? Should we reject it because it is not found in the Bible or BoM? There are some Christian religions that reject anything not found in the Bible. Should that be our course?

Given these two realities of the church evolving further than what was envisioned in the BoM AND that it was considered the fulness of the gospel that some creative thinking was in order.
SilentDawning wrote: 18 Aug 2021, 02:07 On reviewing this, I can't see the BoM containing the fulness of the gospel without some reliance on word play or mental gymnastics.
Yes, I believe some creative interpretation was used to try to correlate the two seemingly contradictory ideas (not unlike what we humans do in many other circumstances).
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
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SilentDawning
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Re: Book of Mormon contains the Fulness of the Gospel?

Post by SilentDawning »

These are good points. But I guess we should stop preaching the BOM is the fullness of the gospel if greater fulness has been revealed to us via prophets.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
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SilentDawning
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Re: Book of Mormon contains the Fulness of the Gospel?

Post by SilentDawning »

Roy wrote: 28 Jul 2021, 14:54 Are we as a church capable of grappling with statements and ideas that the church held to in the past that are wrong (or could have been right for their time and place but are no longer accurate)?
I think not. We like to think that everything is fixed in stone when shared, spoken in conference, or sometimes, even heard at church. It's the follow-up conclusion to the idea that the church is the only true church on the earth. People expect consistency, an absence of error, and absolute statements to be true in all situations.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
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DarkJedi
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Re: Book of Mormon contains the Fulness of the Gospel?

Post by DarkJedi »

SilentDawning wrote: 19 Sep 2021, 15:54 These are good points. But I guess we should stop preaching the BOM is the fullness of the gospel if greater fulness has been revealed to us via prophets.
Not that the temple can't change because there have been significant changes over my nearly 30 years of temple experience, but it is part of the temple ceremony that the BoM (and Bible) contain the fullness of the Gospel. That would need to change.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction
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