Weird Situation I'm in

Public forum for topics that don't fit into the other categories.
User avatar
SilentDawning
Posts: 7602
Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55

Re: Weird Situation I'm in

Post by SilentDawning »

Well, we had the missionary lesson a few minutes ago...just got home and thought I would report what happened.

Both of my professor friends showed. They dressed up in business casual outfits so they were dressed appropriately they said. I was impressed with that. Me, I was in spandex leggings, a t-shirt and running shoes.

I was impressed with my friends' approach to the missionaries. One of the professors was frank that she was Catholic and wasn't really there to convert. The other professor made a similar comment, although Muslim. The conversation was not structured -- I felt a bit impatient the missionaries were responding only to their comments throughout the meeting rather than taking charge of the direction of the conversation. But afterwards, my friends both said the missionaries were excellent in how they listened and responded to questions.

Somehow, throughout all the meandering, the JS story came out, the restoration came out (that one was a hard thing for the Catholic professor to navigate), our structure of prophets and apostles, and a fair amount of the time at the end, after my friends drew another line in the sand, was invested in describing the missionary program. My professor friends brought the whole thing to a soft landing at the end, giving the missionaries advice for their lives after their missions and explaining how they thought the missionaries could help them eventually.

In fact, of everything that happened, I think the character and attitude of the missionaries made the biggest impression for our church than anything that was taught.

There was no bible bashing, but well-worded questions, some regarding gaps in logic they felt existed in our beginnings and restoration.

I didn't feel it was unfair to the missionaries -- one elder goes home in 2 days and I'm sure he'd rather be teaching people who may not want to change than doing yard work or finding. I know I would be. The other elder had been out for about a month and didn't say much -- he was new to it all. The experience is another drop in his bucket to reflect upon as he gains competency.

Afterwards, I toured the building with the two of my friends and that prompted questions about why there are no crosses, the lay ministry when I showed them the chapel podium etcetera.

I didn't really feel the Spirit throughout any of it, and personally, I was a bit frustrated that the missionaries didn't approach the meeting in a more structured way. When I was a missionary, I had definite objectives in the first lesson. These were to determine if they believed in God, Christ, and Prophets, and then get their reaction to the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith.

But perhaps, given the reluctant nature of my friends, a free-flowing conversation with the agenda set by the frank, but kind questions asked by the two professors was the best thing for that circumstance.

And that is all I have to report -- what do you think?
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
User avatar
DarkJedi
Posts: 8050
Joined: 24 Aug 2013, 20:53

Re: Weird Situation I'm in

Post by DarkJedi »

I was a bit frustrated that the missionaries didn't approach the meeting in a more structured way.
You said that twice. I think there could be multiple reasons for it. I'll list just a few possibilities.

1. Preach My Gospel is purposely made to be more flexible and discussion based. Not like the days when everything was scripted. And, even though the missionaries are supposed to decide which discussion is most appropriate first, it seems to almost always end up as JS and the restoration.
2. The missionaries were apparently quite aware of the status of the people they were teaching. They made it clear they weren't interesting in converting. What else were they supposed to do? It seems like they did what they were asked to do - answer their questions.
3. Related to 2, there was apparently a bit of pushback and reservation. Understandable under the circumstances. Why push?
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction
User avatar
SilentDawning
Posts: 7602
Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55

Re: Weird Situation I'm in

Post by SilentDawning »

Yeah -- that actually makes sense DJ. I suppose if the "investigators" said they weren't interested in converting, the missionaries would simply answer questions to satisfy curiosity and dispense with a commitment-based lesson like we are used to seeing.

I, on my mission would have tried to make the room fill with the Spirit as best I could with the view of changing their minds, but I was idealistic. I believed everything literally regarding the sons of Mosiah and the power of God to change minds through the Spirit. I think that is one reason I am a less-active Mormon today...

One thing -- the friend who said he wanted "to make the missionaries think" never did go that route. He just asked questions in a search for meaning. Meanwhile, the other person tended to ask questions based on what she felt were impossibilities or inconsistencies. But she never descended into a Bible-bashing situation. These were the things that came out during the lesson and the tour afterward when I was on my own with them:

1. The FP and Q12 pictures we viewed had all white people even though we are supposed to be an international church. How could we be an international church and have so few leaders from international areas?

2. The FP and Q12 picture also had no women in it. Aren't women leaders? (I told my friends that we are working on that with changes in which groups of leaders handle the decision-making at the congregation level. My female friend replied 'Shouldn't that already be happening if your Church is true?')

3. The Apostasy period seemed like a long time for people to be without the truth -- how is that fair? (spoken by the Catholic friend who believed the church never left the earth after Peter).

4. My catholic friend made a reference to the scripture that starts "thou art Peter and upon this rock shall I build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." -- she felt this meant there would never be an apostasy. Therefore the idea of restoration makes no sense if the line of prophets/popes continued unbroken until the time of Joseph Smith or even the present.

5. How do you know Joseph Smith was a prophet? (Moroni's promise was the answer we gave --BOM/JS/Church is true). This isn't didn't satisfy as the female friend felt that everyone feels they have felt the spirit regarding their church.

I have to confess, I did enjoy the discussion. I enjoyed hearing my faculty colleagues share their thoughts, their razor point questions, their ability to get straight to the key issues, and their soft-landing kindness at the end of the discussion.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
User avatar
nibbler
Posts: 5027
Joined: 14 Nov 2013, 07:34
Location: Ten miles west of the exact centre of the universe

Re: Weird Situation I'm in

Post by nibbler »

I dunno, I kind of like that the missionaries didn't stick to objectives. It feels like a more organic approach to developing a relationship, where the alternative feels more like someone with ulterior motives.

It sounds like it went well.
I kept a diary right after I was born. Day 1: Tired from the move. Day 2: Everyone thinks I'm an idiot.
— Steven Wright
Arrakeen
Posts: 266
Joined: 25 Aug 2018, 18:49

Re: Weird Situation I'm in

Post by Arrakeen »

Honestly that sounds more like the kind of discussion I preferred on my mission instead of the standard lessons. The “commitment model” always felt pushy and artificial. I would always rather just have a normal conversation with people. And frankly I think the church is also better served when missionaries are seen as people having discussions and answering questions and not some high-pressure marketing tactic.

So there may not be any “numbers” for the missionaries to report or anything, but I would have considered it a success.
User avatar
DarkJedi
Posts: 8050
Joined: 24 Aug 2013, 20:53

Re: Weird Situation I'm in

Post by DarkJedi »

SilentDawning wrote: 10 Jul 2021, 17:58 I, on my mission would have tried to make the room fill with the Spirit as best I could with the view of changing their minds, but I was idealistic. I believed everything literally regarding the sons of Mosiah and the power of God to change minds through the Spirit. I think that is one reason I am a less-active Mormon today...
I know this sounds more orthodox than I usually am, but just because you didn't "feel the Spirit" doesn't mean someone else might have. (The less orthodox me says most people don't really know what the Spirit "feels" like and conflate it with emotion.)
1. The FP and Q12 pictures we viewed had all white people even though we are supposed to be an international church. How could we be an international church and have so few leaders from international areas?

2. The FP and Q12 picture also had no women in it. Aren't women leaders? (I told my friends that we are working on that with changes in which groups of leaders handle the decision-making at the congregation level. My female friend replied 'Shouldn't that already be happening if your Church is true?')
Fair points. We seem to talk the talk of being a global church, but we don't always act or look like it.
3. The Apostasy period seemed like a long time for people to be without the truth -- how is that fair? (spoken by the Catholic friend who believed the church never left the earth after Peter).

4. My catholic friend made a reference to the scripture that starts "thou art Peter and upon this rock shall I build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." -- she felt this meant there would never be an apostasy. Therefore the idea of restoration makes no sense if the line of prophets/popes continued unbroken until the time of Joseph Smith or even the present.
I'm a former Catholic and I don't believe the gospel was ever lost from the earth either, and I do believe the Catholic Church does have some claim to being the one true church. That of course begs the question for the need for a "restoration." There are apologists (like Givens) who might posit that the truths of the gospel were not absent but were more like separated. The core belief that Jesus is the Christ certainly endured and there were people who believed in Him the whole time - and it doesn't take much digging into history to figure that out.
5. How do you know Joseph Smith was a prophet? (Moroni's promise was the answer we gave --BOM/JS/Church is true). This isn't didn't satisfy as the female friend felt that everyone feels they have felt the spirit regarding their church.
That answer doesn't work for me either and I agree with your friend. The CoJCoLDS does not have a monopoly on the Spirit, and again I'm not sure most people know what it is or what it's really "saying."
I have to confess, I did enjoy the discussion. I enjoyed hearing my faculty colleagues share their thoughts, their razor point questions, their ability to get straight to the key issues, and their soft-landing kindness at the end of the discussion.
I do tend to enjoy civil discussions on almost any topic, the church and the gospel included. It doesn't have to always be about being "right."
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction
User avatar
nibbler
Posts: 5027
Joined: 14 Nov 2013, 07:34
Location: Ten miles west of the exact centre of the universe

Re: Weird Situation I'm in

Post by nibbler »

DarkJedi wrote: 11 Jul 2021, 05:23 I'm a former Catholic and I don't believe the gospel was ever lost from the earth either, and I do believe the Catholic Church does have some claim to being the one true church. That of course begs the question for the need for a "restoration." There are apologists (like Givens) who might posit that the truths of the gospel were not absent but were more like separated. The core belief that Jesus is the Christ certainly endured and there were people who believed in Him the whole time - and it doesn't take much digging into history to figure that out.
For the TR question
Do you have a testimony of the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ?
I usually nuance it as more of a personal restoration than a global restoration. Have I "restored" the gospel in my life. After all, what does it matter if there has been a global restoration if I haven't had a personal one and what does it matter if I've had a personal restoration but there hasn't been a global one?

But here I'm sure the church is referring to presence of authority/PH.
I kept a diary right after I was born. Day 1: Tired from the move. Day 2: Everyone thinks I'm an idiot.
— Steven Wright
Old-Timer
Site Admin
Posts: 17243
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: Weird Situation I'm in

Post by Old-Timer »

I am glad it went the way it did. I am a firm believer in talking about what others want to discuss, especially if there is no interest in or intent possibly to convert. Sometimes, "do no harm" is a perfect approach and outcome.

If your friends say good things to others about the experience, even if those others aren't interested in converting, that is a net positive.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
User avatar
DarkJedi
Posts: 8050
Joined: 24 Aug 2013, 20:53

Re: Weird Situation I'm in

Post by DarkJedi »

nibbler wrote: 11 Jul 2021, 06:08
DarkJedi wrote: 11 Jul 2021, 05:23 I'm a former Catholic and I don't believe the gospel was ever lost from the earth either, and I do believe the Catholic Church does have some claim to being the one true church. That of course begs the question for the need for a "restoration." There are apologists (like Givens) who might posit that the truths of the gospel were not absent but were more like separated. The core belief that Jesus is the Christ certainly endured and there were people who believed in Him the whole time - and it doesn't take much digging into history to figure that out.
For the TR question
Do you have a testimony of the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ?
I usually nuance it as more of a personal restoration than a global restoration. Have I "restored" the gospel in my life. After all, what does it matter if there has been a global restoration if I haven't had a personal one and what does it matter if I've had a personal restoration but there hasn't been a global one?

But here I'm sure the church is referring to presence of authority/PH.
I nuance the answer as well, but probably more generally. I hadn't thought of it in terms of me personally before, although that would seem to work.

I think the TR questions are very carefully and exactly worded in order to allow everybody who possibly could go to the temple to go - setting aside arguments about such things as the WoW and tithing being included (IOW, if they really wanted everybody who could go to go, those questions wouldn't be in there). While I agree that most people asking and answering the question about the restoration likely do interpret it as authority/priesthood I'm not sure that's the real intent of the question. Note that I think part of the reason people interpret it that way is because some leaders have taught the idea because it's needed to bolster the point - I personally don't believe in that aspect or that we have any special authority nor do we need it (and Catholic priests might have more authority). I should also note here that the "new" questions revised that question by removing the word "firm" - which I think is significant. The question also doesn't specify gospel.

What Joseph was trying to do was pretty common during his time. He was looking for a church that looked like the ancient church because, if Protestants are right, the Catholic Church was/is corrupted but the ancient church was not (sort of the "if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck, it's a duck" argument). This "restoration" of the ancient church wasn't Joseph's idea, it was part of religious thought at the time and isn't absent from our day. Some of our historians (Bushman and Givens for example) would term Joseph as more of a gatherer of truth than a restorer - the truth was already here, it was just fractured or separated. That is how I nuance the answer. I do believe Joseph did gather much of the truth, but wasn't finished and some of it wasn't really truth (hence the restoration is ongoing). Yes, I believe Joseph was successful in restoring the ancient church to great extent (but I don't necessarily believe other churches don't have these same truths).
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction
Roy
Posts: 7183
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Weird Situation I'm in

Post by Roy »

I agree that it seems to have gone well.

I also admit to having a certain amount of impatience with the current more discussion focused "discussions" (instead of the presentations from my era). To me it seemed that there was a series of step level stairs with gates and increasing commitments. To me it seemed counterproductive to teach the later and bigger commitments if the "investigators" had not yet committed to the earlier and easier steps.

I felt/feel that the missionary program as it is currently designed is for the purpose of delivering numbers and I suppose I am pretty results driven.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
Post Reply