Weird Situation I'm in
- SilentDawning
- Posts: 7602
- Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55
Weird Situation I'm in
Well, I have been enjoying the church-sponsored break from church this last year and a quarter. But I've headed back to church in the last few weeks.
One thing kind of strange happened. I have a Muslim friend who I talk to frequently. He got me exercising and we used to talk a lot on the treadmill at the local gymn club pre-Covid.
He asked to meet with the missionaries. He said he wanted "to make them think". I had my doubts about it, but then he told me he had approached a mutual acquaintance of mine to also take a missionary lesson. I called her and she said, "yes" she would like to be part of it, although the odds of converting were nil, she said (She is catholic).
I found out from the second person that the first friend of mine also said "it would help SD" if they listened to the missionaries. That was an extrapolation from a question he asked me when the missionary topic came up. He asked if it would help me -- I said "a bit, because it shows that I'm helping the missionaries". This appears to be a part reason that he and the other friend are taking the missionary lessons -- to help me. It's not like I asked them or anything -- my first friend offered and then for some reason spread the invitation to my second friend, framing it in part as a way to help me, their friend. There is also some curiosity on their parts as well, so it's not all a hollow favor to me personally.
We meet at the church this weekend with the missionaries. This is an odd situation because I really don't feel like evangelizing the church given the negative experiences I've had with it. I hope the missionaries don't ask me to bear my testimony.
What are your thoughts on this? Am I wasting the missionaries' time? What should I do if they ask me to bear testimony?
One thing kind of strange happened. I have a Muslim friend who I talk to frequently. He got me exercising and we used to talk a lot on the treadmill at the local gymn club pre-Covid.
He asked to meet with the missionaries. He said he wanted "to make them think". I had my doubts about it, but then he told me he had approached a mutual acquaintance of mine to also take a missionary lesson. I called her and she said, "yes" she would like to be part of it, although the odds of converting were nil, she said (She is catholic).
I found out from the second person that the first friend of mine also said "it would help SD" if they listened to the missionaries. That was an extrapolation from a question he asked me when the missionary topic came up. He asked if it would help me -- I said "a bit, because it shows that I'm helping the missionaries". This appears to be a part reason that he and the other friend are taking the missionary lessons -- to help me. It's not like I asked them or anything -- my first friend offered and then for some reason spread the invitation to my second friend, framing it in part as a way to help me, their friend. There is also some curiosity on their parts as well, so it's not all a hollow favor to me personally.
We meet at the church this weekend with the missionaries. This is an odd situation because I really don't feel like evangelizing the church given the negative experiences I've had with it. I hope the missionaries don't ask me to bear my testimony.
What are your thoughts on this? Am I wasting the missionaries' time? What should I do if they ask me to bear testimony?
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young
"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young
"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
Re: Weird Situation I'm in
I have some mixed feelings. I think it's nice your friends want to "help" you. On the other hand I think they may not fully understand that it's not really helping you, and it's probably not helping them either (nor is it really helping the missionaries). If your Muslim friend wants to make them think, he may be looking for a "Bible bash" kind of thing and frankly our 18-year-olds (often from the Corridor but it doesn't matter) aren't at all prepared to discuss religion with non-Christians. In areas where Muslims are the majority (or even sizable minorities) missionaries are usually forbidden from proselytizing them, although in this case the Muslim seems to have sought them out (perhaps at his own peril should his fellow Muslims find out, unless he's telling them he's trying to convert them). I guess my main point here is that I question the motivation, and "helping" you does not seem like a fair motivation for everybody.
Very probably. I think it's not fair to the missionaries that they don't know these people aren't really interested in the church and are not potential converts.Am I wasting the missionaries' time?
I don't think that's if, it's when. A fine mess you've gotten yourself into isn't it? This wouldn't be me, but if asked to bear testimony I'd probably talk about what I actually believe - that Jesus is the Christ. I can't do "I know the church is true, I know Joseph Smith was a prophet, I know the Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book, I know...." if that's what they're looking for (and it likely would be).What should I do if they ask me to bear testimony?
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.
Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."
My Introduction
Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."
My Introduction
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Re: Weird Situation I'm in
What an interesting situation.
You said:
Before anything, I would want to know from my friend, why do I need "help"? There maybe a misunderstanding.
Am I wasting the missionaries' time?
I believe that anytime the Missionaries can give a lesson, even to those who will probably never be receptive, is a good thing.
They can always use the practice & they are exposed to people of other religions.
What should I do if they ask me to bear testimony?
I probably wouldn't be available when the Missionaries gave the lessons.
Or, talk to the missionaries ahead of time & make it clear that you would prefer not to participate.
Do your friends think you get a commission for every referral? (That's a bad joke.)
Keep us informed. I'm interested in how it goes.
You said:
What are your thoughts on this?I found out from the second person that the first friend of mine also said "it would help SD" if they listened to the missionaries.
Before anything, I would want to know from my friend, why do I need "help"? There maybe a misunderstanding.
Am I wasting the missionaries' time?
I believe that anytime the Missionaries can give a lesson, even to those who will probably never be receptive, is a good thing.
They can always use the practice & they are exposed to people of other religions.
What should I do if they ask me to bear testimony?
I probably wouldn't be available when the Missionaries gave the lessons.
Or, talk to the missionaries ahead of time & make it clear that you would prefer not to participate.
Do your friends think you get a commission for every referral? (That's a bad joke.)
Keep us informed. I'm interested in how it goes.
- nibbler
- Posts: 5027
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- Location: Ten miles west of the exact centre of the universe
Re: Weird Situation I'm in
DJ said everything I would have said.
Don't know if you can waste the missionaries' time. What else have they got going on, tracting? As far as testifying goes, say what you can say. Change the subject if necessary. Might help to prepare. E.g. missionaries like to ask questions like, "How important is it to your family to know that the church is true?" These days I'd answer it a little differently than I did 5 years ago, but it helps to be mentally prepared for leading questions.
Did you mean that giving missionaries a referral might help a little with social capital at church?SilentDawning wrote: ↑08 Jul 2021, 02:39 That was an extrapolation from a question he asked me when the missionary topic came up. He asked if it would help me -- I said "a bit, because it shows that I'm helping the missionaries".
DJ already mentioned this but yeah, I don't think both parties trying to get the other party to think will be helpful.SilentDawning wrote: ↑08 Jul 2021, 02:39 He asked to meet with the missionaries. He said he wanted "to make them think".
Don't know if you can waste the missionaries' time. What else have they got going on, tracting? As far as testifying goes, say what you can say. Change the subject if necessary. Might help to prepare. E.g. missionaries like to ask questions like, "How important is it to your family to know that the church is true?" These days I'd answer it a little differently than I did 5 years ago, but it helps to be mentally prepared for leading questions.
I kept a diary right after I was born. Day 1: Tired from the move. Day 2: Everyone thinks I'm an idiot.
— Steven Wright
— Steven Wright
Re: Weird Situation I'm in
I literally thought the same thing. After all, to an outsider (and sometimes to me as an insider) the Church looks like a big MLM scheme. They might actually think this either literally ($100 off your tithing for every referral!) or figuratively (you get some kind of "good Mormon" cred in the community, which essentially you do).Do your friends think you get a commission for every referral? (That's a bad joke.)
Fantastic point!Don't know if you can waste the missionaries' time. What else have they got going on, tracting?
- On Own Now
- Posts: 1801
- Joined: 18 Jan 2012, 12:45
Re: Weird Situation I'm in
Hi SD. Fascinating situation. Thanks, for sharing, and I look forward to hearing how it goes. Couple of random thoughts...
Also, I'd be a little worried that your friend is setting a trap for the missionaries with you as the legitimizer.
Of course, I realize that "making them think" is what the missionaries themselves are trying to do. So, sure, it's a double standard. Except I don't love the missionary approach either (at this stage in my life) and would much prefer that the Church operated more on an open invitation to the interested, rather than a door to door, made-you-think campaign.
If it were me, and merely as a courtesy to the missionaries who are donating their time, while their peers back home enjoying the last couple of years of their youth, I would probably tell the missionaries that this is more of a good-will call with an opportunity to educate others about the Church, but these are not investigators. i'm certain that they would still jump at the chance, even with that understanding.
For me, I don't love when people take it as their mission to point out things to "make them think" (whoever they are). IMO, it would be a much better world if we all had the attitude of "I'd like to hear what someone different from me has to say — to give me something to think about."
Also, I'd be a little worried that your friend is setting a trap for the missionaries with you as the legitimizer.
Of course, I realize that "making them think" is what the missionaries themselves are trying to do. So, sure, it's a double standard. Except I don't love the missionary approach either (at this stage in my life) and would much prefer that the Church operated more on an open invitation to the interested, rather than a door to door, made-you-think campaign.
If it were me, and merely as a courtesy to the missionaries who are donating their time, while their peers back home enjoying the last couple of years of their youth, I would probably tell the missionaries that this is more of a good-will call with an opportunity to educate others about the Church, but these are not investigators. i'm certain that they would still jump at the chance, even with that understanding.
I would be concerned about that as well. I have turned down callings before, for example, explaining that I can't be in a position where my testimony is required. This is one where I would speak to both missionaries at the same time and explain that "I don't want you to call on me to bear testimony. I will interject if I have anything to add. Don't call on me. Do we have a deal?"
Wow, this really is a 'weird' situation. I'm sure you would like to convey to them that this isn't an MLM. Maybe one way to do this would be to kick off the meeting this weekend with a clarifying statement that you convey with a smile and a chuckle... something like: "I'm sure you both know this is a volunteer Church, and we don't get any extra credit for this meeting, but I'm glad you both wanted to learn a bit more about the Church. And just so you know, these two missionaries are here as volunteers. They aren't paid and, in fact, they are paying their own way to be here... they don't like to make a big deal about it, but I can."SilentDawning wrote: ↑08 Jul 2021, 02:39 ...but then he told me he had approached a mutual acquaintance of mine to also take a missionary lesson...I found out from the second person that the first friend of mine also said "it would help SD" if they listened to the missionaries.
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“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.” ― Carl Jung
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"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." ― Romans 14:13
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“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.” ― Carl Jung
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"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." ― Romans 14:13
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- SilentDawning
- Posts: 7602
- Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55
Re: Weird Situation I'm in
I guess so, but that wasn't what I said -- I just said, it shows I'm helping the missionaries. I guess that means social capital, but what do I need social capital for? I already spent it all when I withdrew from my call as HPGL many moons ago.
Most of you seem to think it's a good opportunity for the missionaries to teach something to others. The first friend said that he would listen more than he would talk, so that is good.
If I can throw my own attitude as a former missionary on the situation -- I believed strongly in miracles as a missionary. I even met with someone who was an anti-Mormon -- joined the church at the behest of a few anti-Mormons and was told to join their ex-Mormon group afterward. I went into the discussion with this person full of faith and tried to exercise humility to let God take over the discussion. Great things happened in the discussion and this hard core anti-Mormon's heart was softened. I heard that he and his less active girlfriend eventually got married in the temple.
So, miracles are possible if people are willing to listen. That was my idealism as a missionary and it was born out a couple times.
One thing I like about this situation is that both friends are motivated to "help me" even though the value they are creating is actually not something I'm a-hankerin' for. It speaks of a good relationship and friendship.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young
"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young
"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
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- Posts: 2221
- Joined: 15 Sep 2011, 13:40
Re: Weird Situation I'm in
Having good friends & being a good friend is a a BIG blessing in my life too.SilentDawning wrote: ↑08 Jul 2021, 22:07 ...One thing I like about this situation is that both friends are motivated to "help me" even though the value they are creating is actually not something I'm a-hankerin' for. It speaks of a good relationship and friendship.
Re: Weird Situation I'm in
This reminded me of an incident that I found extremely humorous at the time, but I'm sure most members didn't. A few years ago we had a visiting area authority at stake conference. He was in the mode of making the adult session very interactive and calling people up to say something, bear testimony, whatever. For example, it was right after Come Follow Me began and he had several "volunteers" come up to say how wonderful it was for their families. Later on the discussion turned to missionary work and he wanted to hear from some recent converts. There was a very well known guy who had converted in the few months prior after hanging around for a few months. He had held some sort of lay ministry position in the Catholic church and was employed by them. He had to give up his job when he joined the church, and he had some difficulty finding meaningful employment since (I think at the time he was working at Home Depot*). It is not apparent much of that information was shared with the visiting AA. So he calls up this believer and devout ex-Catholic and does a little small talk on how wonderful it is he found the true church and puts his are around the guy and says something along the lines of "Isn't it wonderful how the gospel changes lives? Hasn't your life really been better since finding the true church?" to which the guy responded "Not really, I've always known Jesus." I almost burst out laughing but I controlled myself and disguised it as a cough while the AA, who was not looking for that kind of answer, said "Thank you" and literally did a "Moving right along" and changed the topic. BTW, the convert did remain active for a couple years but has since slipped away.
*This is not to say Home Depot can't be meaningful employment. For some people it absolutely is - but it was not so for him as it was not in line with his previous work or his career goals.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.
Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."
My Introduction
Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."
My Introduction
Re: Weird Situation I'm in
I share the concern about your friends' intention to make the missionaries think. That is not fair, to say it as charitably as I can; it might even be a covert attempt at proselyting their own view. (I had that experience with Jehovah's Witnesses on my mission, and it was brutal.)
I would see how the first meeting goes and take it from there. If I was asked to bear my testimony, I would do so - about Gospel principles and the benefits I have gotten from my church membership. I would bear a heterodox testimony in fluent Mormonese.
I also would warn the missionaries upfront that you are not sure of your friends' motive(s) and tell them that it might be a one-time thing. They deserve that, I believe.
I would see how the first meeting goes and take it from there. If I was asked to bear my testimony, I would do so - about Gospel principles and the benefits I have gotten from my church membership. I would bear a heterodox testimony in fluent Mormonese.
I also would warn the missionaries upfront that you are not sure of your friends' motive(s) and tell them that it might be a one-time thing. They deserve that, I believe.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)
Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken