Come, Follow Me D&C: 2021 February

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Roy
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Re: Come, Follow Me D&C: 2021 February

Post by Roy » 22 Feb 2021, 10:08

DarkJedi wrote:
22 Feb 2021, 07:50
Yes, I agree. I think it was more the plan to compare the two rather than alter the original and then point out the differences. They really wouldn't have to work that hard because it seems unlikely that Joseph would have been able to reproduce an exact copy of that size. However, if you're claiming to have translated it it's pretty hard to save face and not come up with some other explanation.
Trying to be charitable towards JS, I am thinking that maybe he used the word "translate" because his contemporaries would not have understood the nuances of the revelatory process. Then once he went with that word choice then he had to defend it. Unfortunately, that still leaves us with JS both putting words into God's mouth with this D&C revelation AND introducing elements into the BoM narrative in order to keep with the illusion that translation meant more of a traditional translation.

When I learned that JS had changed/updated previous revelations in the D&C as his doctrinal understanding evolved, it troubled me. How can a person that has written the "word of God" ever go back and change it? Unless, receiving the word of God is a much more collaborative process than I had previously supposed. To me, the story of the 116 plates has JS doing something similar in making changes to what was supposed to be a sacred text literally engraved in metal plates. Only, instead of JS making changes as his understanding evolved these changes seem designed to get him out of his current predicament.

Which leads me to wonder, is it possible that the entire BoM narrative was a vehicle for JS to communicate what he felt were divine truths to his contemporaries? That "finding" these spiritual truths in ancient texts made them more authoritative?
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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DarkJedi
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Re: Come, Follow Me D&C: 2021 February

Post by DarkJedi » 22 Feb 2021, 15:12

Roy wrote:
22 Feb 2021, 10:08
Which leads me to wonder, is it possible that the entire BoM narrative was a vehicle for JS to communicate what he felt were divine truths to his contemporaries? That "finding" these spiritual truths in ancient texts made them more authoritative?
I think that's very possible. In another thread there's some discussion about 19th Century influence on the Book of Mormon. I think that's very real, and I think scholars easily see that as well and some of them dare to politely say so (with impunity, which may not have happened 20 years ago). The church itself comes very close to admitting as much in the essay on the Book of Abraham.

In Rough Stone Rolling Bushman asserts that Joseph was more a seeker of truth than a restorer. I think Joseph was trying very hard to restore Christianity as it existed before the creeds, keeping in mind in the canonized version of Joseph's story he did say it was the creeds that were an abomination, not the churches themselves.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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nibbler
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Re: Come, Follow Me D&C: 2021 February

Post by nibbler » 22 Feb 2021, 15:41

DarkJedi wrote:
22 Feb 2021, 15:12
In Rough Stone Rolling Bushman asserts that Joseph was more a seeker of truth than a restorer. I think Joseph was trying very hard to restore Christianity as it existed before the creeds, keeping in mind in the canonized version of Joseph's story he did say it was the creeds that were an abomination, not the churches themselves.
Joseph could have been invoking god's authority to settle debates. Waffling on infant baptism because the Bible is unclear on the subject? Wondering about what happens to children that die before they were baptized? Is baptism required for resurrection? What's this about original sin; am I guilty of sin because something my parent did? Here's a book of scripture from prophets that settles the matter.

[quote="Joseph Smith History 1:12]...for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.[/quote]

Maybe Joseph saw the Book of Mormon as a method for resolving debates because the Bible was too ambiguous. Having a book of scripture could grease the wheels of faith for some. It might be hard for people to put full trust in a pastor but it could be easier for them to place their faith in an answer if it came from something they viewed as a definitive source, something they held to be scripture.

If the Bible was clear on infant baptism they're be no debate. Since it wasn't clear, some people needed a book they believed to be on par with the Bible to resolve the questions. At least from Joseph's perspective.
Cure sometimes, treat often, comfort always.
— Hippocrates

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DarkJedi
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Re: Come, Follow Me D&C: 2021 February

Post by DarkJedi » 22 Feb 2021, 16:05

nibbler wrote:
22 Feb 2021, 15:41
DarkJedi wrote:
22 Feb 2021, 15:12
In Rough Stone Rolling Bushman asserts that Joseph was more a seeker of truth than a restorer. I think Joseph was trying very hard to restore Christianity as it existed before the creeds, keeping in mind in the canonized version of Joseph's story he did say it was the creeds that were an abomination, not the churches themselves.
Joseph could have been invoking god's authority to settle debates. Waffling on infant baptism because the Bible is unclear on the subject? Wondering about what happens to children that die before they were baptized? Is baptism required for resurrection? What's this about original sin; am I guilty of sin because something my parent did? Here's a book of scripture from prophets that settles the matter.

[="Joseph Smith History 1:12]...for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.

Maybe Joseph saw the Book of Mormon as a method for resolving debates because the Bible was too ambiguous. Having a book of scripture could grease the wheels of faith for some. It might be hard for people to put full trust in a pastor but it could be easier for them to place their faith in an answer if it came from something they viewed as a definitive source, something they held to be scripture.

If the Bible was clear on infant baptism they're be no debate. Since it wasn't clear, some people needed a book they believed to be on par with the Bible to resolve the questions. At least from Joseph's perspective.
No question Joseph was concerned about many of these things. He was very upset when a pastor told him his brother Alvin was going to hell because he wasn't baptized. Lo and behold, the issue is addressed in the BoM and D&C. Tender mercy? Could be. Revelation/inspiration? Also possible. Joseph's own confirmation bias? Not out of the question. FWIW, I think Joseph was right - I don't think the lack of baptism kept Alvin from heaven (nor does it keep the rest of us from heaven).

Another point to consider here is that the history as we have it (mostly from a D&C point of view) is not necessarily the order of the way things really transpired chronologically. Some of the headings in some sections of the D&C allude to that, and some "earlier" (lower numbered) sections of the D&C were received much later than higher numbered sections. Joseph may have received stuff line upon line, but not necessarily in the order we think/know. Another example is the temple ceremonies - earlier parts of the current rites were received after later parts.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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