Does historicity matter?

Public forum to discuss questions about Mormon history and doctrine.
Rsbenson
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Re: Does historicity matter?

Post by Rsbenson » 09 Nov 2014, 00:07

Ray DeGraw:
If one leaves the Church, he must leave a valid baptism. Ouside the Chruch noone has the authority to perform that ordinance. I did not mean to imply that he can't get back in. You told me not to teach so I didn't feel I needed to explain that. As far as getting back in the Church, there's always, also, the spirit world after this life, even if that includes suffering for you own sins. I didn't feel that I needed to explain that. What I said is not false doctrine. It is true doctrine and all of the apostles would agree with it. If they didn't then they would, definitely, be wrong. Show this to them if you like.

With this kind of knowledge how could anyone leave the Church. It would be like picking up a bottle of poison and saying, ‘I think I’ll drink this and see what it feels like’. It’s simple logic. It doesn’t make any sense. Sure, you’ll die and go to the Spirit World. There you’ll accept the temple work done for you, if temple work needs to be done for you. But why would anyone want to take that route when they can just stay in the Church in the first place? I just didn’t think I needed to explain all that. Outside the unforgiveable, there's always a way to salvation. (Assuming, of course, your killing yourself is forgiveable. I don't know.)

Maybe I need to explain myself better without teaching. What I meant for everyone to understand was if you read something that definitely has a spiritual message and you didn’t get any spiritual message out of it then you need to read it again and put more thought into it. I wasn’t implying any scripture that was, purely, informational.
Last edited by Rsbenson on 10 Nov 2014, 18:27, edited 1 time in total.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Does historicity matter?

Post by DarkJedi » 09 Nov 2014, 03:53

Rsbenson wrote: With this kind of knowledge how could anyone leave the Church. It would be like picking up a bottle of poison and saying, ‘I think I’ll drink this and see what it feels like’. It’s simple logic. It doesn’t make any sense. Sure, you’ll die and go to the Spirit World. There you’ll accept the temple work done for you, if temple work needs to be done for you. But why would anyone want to take that route when they can just stay in the Church in the first place? I just didn’t think I needed to explain all that. Outside the unforgiveable, there's always a way to salvation. (Assuming, of course, your killing yourself is forgiveable. I don't know.)

Maybe I need to explain myself better without teaching. What I meant for everyone to understand was if you read something that definitely has a spiritual message and you didn’t get any spiritual message out of it then you need to read it again and put more thought into it. I wasn’t implying any scripture that was, purely, informational.
May I suggest you read and ponder the words of a living prophet? Pres. Uchtdorf, Oct. 2013 General Conference (emphasis added):
The search for truth has led millions of people to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. However, there are some who leave the Church they once loved.

One might ask, “If the gospel is so wonderful, why would anyone leave?”

Sometimes we assume it is because they have been offended or lazy or sinful. Actually, it is not that simple. In fact, there is not just one reason that applies to the variety of situations.

Some of our dear members struggle for years with the question whether they should separate themselves from the Church.

In this Church that honors personal agency so strongly, that was restored by a young man who asked questions and sought answers, we respect those who honestly search for truth. It may break our hearts when their journey takes them away from the Church we love and the truth we have found, but we honor their right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience, just as we claim that privilege for ourselves.
Read and ponder the whole talk.

rsbenson, I'm sure there are people who can read the Bible of the Book of Mormon and not get anything spiritual from it (and least that they will admit). I don't know how that works, either. I don't know why people are atheists. And I don't know why you're so worried about other people instead of worrying about yourself, which brings me to why I came back so early this morning. In my earlier comment I said that yes, I had received some spiritual interaction dealing with literalness of the scriptures. My interaction is greatly dependent on my own point of view and applies to me, not to you or anyone else. Our experiences, including our dealings with God/The Spirit are each individually ours and ours alone.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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nibbler
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Location: Ten miles west of the exact centre of the universe

Re: Does historicity matter?

Post by nibbler » 09 Nov 2014, 06:17

Rsbenson wrote:Did the Spirit tell you not to be concerned about resolving historical problems?
Excellent question. Short answer, yes. Long answer:

Yes, but that was the spirit's answer for me. I fully accept that the spirit could tell someone else that a historical problem needs to be resolved... and I don't see that as being contradictory. Each person is unique and the spirit is going to tailor the message to the needs of the individual according to their current understanding. I believe we receive unique revelations, just like patriarchal blessings, that are geared toward helping us move from where we currently are towards the next precept that we need to learn. That's going to be slightly different for everyone. Maybe if I ask that question again in the future the answer will be different.

I also don't see it as an all or nothing proposition. The spirit might indicate to me that it's time to shift focus away from one particular historical problem but it might indicate to me that I need to spend time pondering and learning about some other historical issue. I want to be open to the direction that the spirit would have me take.
Rsbenson wrote:I have a question for you and, regardless of your answer, I am not going to comment on it or challenge it.
Don't hold back for my sake. Personally I'm loving your perspectives.
Cure sometimes, treat often, comfort always.
— Hippocrates

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Does historicity matter?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 09 Nov 2014, 11:07

People who leave the LDS Church are NOT automatically sons of perdition. Period.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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mackay11
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Re: Does historicity matter?

Post by mackay11 » 09 Nov 2014, 11:19

cwald wrote:
Rsbenson wrote:... If you leave the Church, you leave a valid baptism, you leave any chance of kingdom of glory. You are a son of perdition, forever. Leaving the Church makes no sense, WHATsoever, for any reason...
;)
Cwald... That was about as succinct a response as could have been given.

Rsbenson... Either you're a brilliant satirist or your for real. [Moderated by Heber13] Our family had a wonderful autumnal walk this morning along a local canal path, admiring the beauties of nature and enjoy being together.

(Sorry Ray and other mods. Don't be too quick to ban RSB, it's livening things up a bit :) )

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SunbeltRed
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Re: Does historicity matter?

Post by SunbeltRed » 09 Nov 2014, 13:47

What mackay said (other than taking a walk today. I wish we had taken a walk today, it would have been much more productive and spiritual than church today).

-SBRed

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DarkJedi
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Joined: 24 Aug 2013, 20:53

Re: Does historicity matter?

Post by DarkJedi » 09 Nov 2014, 14:11

SunbeltRed wrote:What mackay said (other than taking a walk today. I wish we had taken a walk today, it would have been much more productive and spiritual than church today).

-SBRed
We did take a walk today, but around the neighborhood in the afternoon after church. Even so, it was better than church today - not a great day at church.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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mom3
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Joined: 02 Apr 2011, 14:11

Re: Does historicity matter?

Post by mom3 » 09 Nov 2014, 14:48

Sb wrote
What mackay said (other than taking a walk today. I wish we had taken a walk today, it would have been much more productive and spiritual than church today).

-SBRed
And DJ wrote
We did take a walk today, but around the neighborhood in the afternoon after church. Even so, it was better than church today - not a great day at church.
Wow - I am on week 4 of an 8 week recovery, and was feeling sorry for myself. Thanks for reminding me that recovery has it's benefits.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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SunbeltRed
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Re: Does historicity matter?

Post by SunbeltRed » 09 Nov 2014, 19:32

Don't want to derail too much, but talks focused on true conversion (knowing things) with testimonies that included things like no one can be truly happy without living the gospel. Followed w third hour combined presentation on our ward mission plan. Not really my cup of tea ;)

Sometimes having a crazy 1 year old makes for a good excuse to be roaming the hallway :smile:

Rsbenson
Posts: 18
Joined: 17 Oct 2014, 00:52

Re: Does historicity matter?

Post by Rsbenson » 10 Nov 2014, 16:22

Dark Jedi:
I'm flattered. You said that I was so worried about others. My wife says that I only think of myself.
What I was trying to get across is, If somebody has a knowledge of LDS doctrine and is a member of the LDS Church, why in the world would they separate themselves from an ordinance that is absolutely crirical to their salvation? If they would think about it, nothing but nothing is important enough to leave the Chruch. But If they insist on doing that, OK!? It’s fine with me but they're going to regret it. I have all ready stated my views on why I'm not leaving the Church for any reason. Everybody else can do what they want and I've told you that, also.

Now, I have a grievance. Some of you have talked to me about my relationship to the PROHETS and APOSTLES – like I’m obligated to believe every word they say. I listen to them the best that I can. I’ m not a very good listener. I don’t think you’ve ever quoted them where I have disagreed with them. But know this. When they speak, I listen to what they say and then I, AND I ALONE, decide whether It’s right or wrong. You decide that for yourselves, but you don’t decide that for me! Now as for this talk of Elder Uchtdorf, I remember it and had no argument with it. But to use it to deal with why somebody leaves the Church, I wouldn’t even use it because if someone leaves the Church, I, not only don’t worry about it, I can’t even say I really care. I was just wondering about the nonsensicalness of it. If you don’t believe the Church is the Lord’s Church then, OK, it’s time to leave. I believe it is the Lord’s Church, so, no matter how stupid things gets, I stay.

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