Race and The Priesthood

Public forum to discuss questions about Mormon history and doctrine.
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Heber13
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Re: Race and The Priesthood

Post by Heber13 » 07 Dec 2013, 18:48

Thanks mom3
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Race and The Priesthood

Post by Curt Sunshine » 08 Dec 2013, 10:47

I thought the following comment from a black member in a Facebook thread I am following was profound:
My experiences of degradation, assault, rejection came in an entirely different form. Yet, I had remarkably similar spiritual experiences to those of Darius (Gray). With remarkably similar results for me personally. These soul-wrenching challenges - racism, inequality, human propensity to abuse power and perpetrate cruelty are inherent in the mortal experience. I wish every person could find the answers to her/his own suffering in the way Darius (and in my case, I) did. I don't have an answer for how or why some are able to do this and others are not, but I believe that we find God in our extremities. And this, for some, is one of those moments. I hope we find God again. Today.

No single statement, no matter how carefully crafted or dispersed will compensate for the effects of mortality. Ever. No apology will repair the damage done by uninformed or prejudiced people. This is why we have a Savior, an atonement. To make up for all the crap left in the wake of our human failings.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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SamBee
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Re: Race and The Priesthood

Post by SamBee » 08 Dec 2013, 12:36

Yes, the Eldridge Cleaver one is interesting.

I suspect there is a direct link between 1978 and the militant black power movement of the sixties and early seventies whether MLK, Malcolm X
or the Black Panthers. The Soviet Union capitalized big time on the
treatment of African Americans for Cold War purposes.

However, there is another issue. I've heard that there was a big influx
of Brazilians in the 1970s, and they've never been shy of intermarriage.
Most Brazilians have black, Portuguese and native ancestry as well as other things. Many Brazilians got TRs and then found out they had African ancestry. The idea of unfrocking them for the "one drop" theory would have been too impractical.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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SamBee
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Re: Race and The Priesthood

Post by SamBee » 08 Dec 2013, 12:42

I think BY is to blame. not JS. None of the LDS churches outside the BY lineage practised the ban AFAIK.

But there are parts of the BoM and BoA which are directly related to ban.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Race and The Priesthood

Post by Curt Sunshine » 08 Dec 2013, 16:47

The impetus provided by missionary work in Brazil is mentioned and explained in the statement, which is a wonderful aspect, frankly.

There is another thread on By Common Consent, written by Kristine and entitled "Bound Hand and Foot with Graveclothes", that is a fascinating perspective - a connection I like that I have never made.

The link is: (http://bycommonconsent.com/2013/12/08/b ... veclothes/)
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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SamBee
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Re: Race and The Priesthood

Post by SamBee » 08 Dec 2013, 18:29

An often overlooked fact - black Pacific Islanders got priesthood long before African people.

I suspect that between JS' death and 1978, a number (not huge) of
priesthood holders had black ancestry somewhere down the line. In South Africa, the USA, Australia etc, whites often used to hide native/non-white ancestry. (conversely most African Americans and many
black Jamaicans etc have white ancestry...)

Anyone from the Mediterranean basin, Iberia, the Middle East...
including Italy, Greece, southern France, and Spain is very likely to
have some remote African ancestry.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Curt Sunshine
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Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: Race and The Priesthood

Post by Curt Sunshine » 08 Dec 2013, 20:39

The statement actually admits that, Sam. It's one of the things I like about it. :smile:
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

brit-exmo
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Re: Race and The Priesthood

Post by brit-exmo » 09 Dec 2013, 16:01

Ray Degraw wrote: Seriously, I like this WAY more than an attempt to list every racist statement. This says it's not important to identify which statements are worthy of repudiation; instead, it says all of the racist ones are, no matter the source.
even the book of mormon??

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Race and The Priesthood

Post by Curt Sunshine » 09 Dec 2013, 20:03

brit-exmo, yes, in the exact same sense as the Biblical ones and the ones in any other record that is said to be of ancient origin, whether historical or fictional.

Seriously, the existence of those Book of Mormon statements don't bother me in the slightest, nor does rejecting them as not being God's word, for two main reasons:

1) As a history teacher, it would surprise me and raise red flags if there were NOT racist statements in it, given one of the central themes from people raised in the Jewish tradition (even though they weren't Jews) in a time period where racism was the de facto view of every people.

2) It helps make a point I believe deeply - that scriptures are NOT inerrant but rather represent the best understanding of the humans of the time.

Again, I see this exactly like I see the racism that is rampant in the Bible - and we (Mormons) accept Those statements as being scriptural but not hos God sees things because we understand the Bible isn't inerrant, dictated straight from God's mouth through prophets to the written word. We need to understand the same thing about the Book of Mormon (and the Pearl of Great Price) - that it isn't our own version of the inerrant Bible of Protestantism, so it is easy for me to read the statement's condemnation of all racism, regardless of its source, as including that which is found in our scriptures.

That's what the actual statement says (what the words actually mean), and I applaud the wording.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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SamBee
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Re: Race and The Priesthood

Post by SamBee » 10 Dec 2013, 12:42

The one thing that can be said for the BoM compared to BoA is that those who received the skin of darkness intermarried and converted.
Last edited by SamBee on 10 Dec 2013, 12:51, edited 1 time in total.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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