Um...self-stimulation okay in marriage?

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Heber13
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Re: Um...self-stimulation okay in marriage?

Post by Heber13 » 04 Nov 2013, 16:44

Mormon Therapist wrote: What I have come to understand is the answers I received largely depended on which leader you approach and what their past experience has been with leaders of their own.
We just had a stake priesthood meeting, the Stake President stood before Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood and said "I need to say this so that everyone understands, masturbation is a sin. If you are struggling, please go talk to your bishop. That is all I am going to say on that matter." This was not aimed at pre-marriage, no distinction was made.

I agree that with the therapist...the directives on this will vary by leader. And those with authority will feel their feelings on the matter are inspiration for those they hold keys for.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Um...self-stimulation okay in marriage?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 04 Nov 2013, 18:13

That's sad but not unexpected, Heber13. :thumbdown:

I have a dear friend who has struggled for years with the tension caused by a Stake President who told her before she got married that oral sex is a sin. That was roughly 20 years ago, and she finally is beginning to let go of that statement and addressing the cost to her marriage over the years.

We want guidelines for things for which no guidelines should exist. It's the whole "commanded in all things" tendency. To put it differently, sometimes we ask too many questions and, thereby, get answers we shouldn't have.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Roy
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Re: Um...self-stimulation okay in marriage?

Post by Roy » 06 Nov 2013, 12:51

Ray Degraw wrote:I have a dear friend who has struggled for years with the tension caused by a Stake President who told her before she got married that oral sex is a sin. That was roughly 20 years ago, and she finally is beginning to let go of that statement and addressing the cost to her marriage over the years.
Ultimately this comes down to the partners in the marriage. To the extent that the feelings of one or more of the partners has been influenced by their upbringing in the church then that may come into play as well. But, at that point the partner might have adopted their position personally - so even if they are using church teachings to bolster their position - it is still their position. I also feel that there is a need for compromise and reasonableness on both sides. DW has come a looooong way in recognizing some situationally appropriate "self stimulation."

As a general principle, when one partner feels very strongly on an issue and the other partner doesn't feel as strong - I feel it is up to the second partner to accommodate the first. Where the challenge comes is where both parties feel strongly in different directions on a particular issue.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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QuestionAbound
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Re: Um...self-stimulation okay in marriage?

Post by QuestionAbound » 06 Nov 2013, 15:22

Interesting stories and points. What I would hate to do is to confuse a brand new member.
Perhaps if one questions (like my friend did), it is best to steer them clear of asking an actual leader? :)

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Um...self-stimulation okay in marriage?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 06 Nov 2013, 15:36

Perhaps if one questions (like my friend did), it is best to steer them clear of asking an actual leader?


It's a crap shoot what will be said, so if someone asks a leader, it is CRITICAL that the person understand what they will be hearing is a personal opinion when it comes to a topic like this.

Having said that, the handbook says clearly that leaders are not supposed to deal with this sort of question in any authoritative way. The decision is left to the individual couples. Therefore, absolutely, this is a case where it is better not to ask the question and rely on one's own best judgment.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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mackay11
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Re: Um...self-stimulation okay in marriage?

Post by mackay11 » 07 Nov 2013, 07:49

Heber13 wrote: We just had a stake priesthood meeting, the Stake President stood before Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood and said "I need to say this so that everyone understands, masturbation is a sin. If you are struggling, please go talk to your bishop. That is all I am going to say on that matter." This was not aimed at pre-marriage, no distinction was made.

I agree that with the therapist...the directives on this will vary by leader. And those with authority will feel their feelings on the matter are inspiration for those they hold keys for.
I may have taught the same in the past.

And yet I've had a Bishop tell me that sometimes it's ok. He gave the example of a married man whose wife has recently had a baby. He considered it better for the guy to "take care of himself" than to bother the wife while she was recovering.

As soon as members learn that their leaders "know in part" and "see through a glass darkly" they will realise that they shouldn't hang from their every word.

Roadrunner
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Re: Um...self-stimulation okay in marriage?

Post by Roadrunner » 07 Nov 2013, 16:31

Heber13 wrote:the Stake President stood before Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood and said
blah blah blah.

Heber, of course this isn't directed at you, the statement just touched a nerve. The fact that we have to ask this question just annoys me to no end. I think back to my grandfather's statement that there are two kinds of liars. The kind who says they've never masturbated and the kind who says they've quit.

This obsession of some leaders about masturbation is asinine and unhealthy.

It seems to me that if the statement "no masturbation in marriage" could be interpreted to mean sexual intercourse should be completely unselfish and therefore no personal enjoyment should be derived from it whatsoever - all pleasure should be that of your partner. The damage that these type of statements inflict on marriages and guilt-prone teenagers just astounds and disgusts me.
Last edited by Roadrunner on 29 Apr 2014, 16:18, edited 1 time in total.

Joni
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Re: Um...self-stimulation okay in marriage?

Post by Joni » 22 Nov 2013, 13:33

I actually brought this up with my husband last night and he gave me the kneejerk response: nope, not okay ever, not if you're married, not under any circumstances. I think he must have heard the same talks as a lot of you ;) I do wish we could differentiate between "not okay for an unmarried 19-year-old male whose focus is supposed to be on missionary work" and "not okay for a married woman who probably isn't going to experience orgasm otherwise." But the leadership of the Church won't even say the word "sex" :shock: so I don't think we can expect any kind of clarification.

I do think it's really unfair how the Lord designed our bodies differently. It's almost impossible for a healthy, functioning male not to experience orgasm as the result of regular, garden-variety sex. And it's almost impossible for a woman to. (This is a fact I've even seen acknowledged in LDS-centric sex books!) To me, that is another sign of how much the Lord prefers men over women, that he loves and respects males a lot more than he does females. Because the kind of sex that is generally regarded as kosher in the LDS faith is going to result in a male orgasm but not a female one.

I even explained this to my husband and he didn't have a good response, but he still will not back down on the "masturbation is always wrong, always" viewpoint. His argument is that masturbation is selfish and one-sided. Of course, regular ol' intercourse can also be selfish and one-sided but that has the Lord's stamp of approval (and it's almost always one-sided in the favor of the male).

I don't think it's wrong within a marriage and several posters have mentioned situations where it's even been encouraged by PH leaders. I would never judge or condemn a married couple who has decided it's within healthy and appropriate boundaries for their marriage. But as much as I may want to, I can't do it knowing that my husband is opposed to it.

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Re: Um...self-stimulation okay in marriage?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 25 Nov 2013, 21:35

Joni, when done correctly, sex generally is more intense for the woman than for the man, so maybe that's a sign that God loves women more than men. ;)
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Ilovechrist77
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Re: Um...self-stimulation okay in marriage?

Post by Ilovechrist77 » 25 Nov 2013, 23:38

Roadrunner does make an excellent point about some leaders obsession about masturbation is unhealthy. I believe it's the same way with the church's obsession with pornography.

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