Um...self-stimulation okay in marriage?

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mackay11
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Re: Um...self-stimulation okay in marriage?

Post by mackay11 » 26 Nov 2013, 03:07

Joni wrote:I actually brought this up with my husband last night and he gave me the kneejerk response: nope, not okay ever, not if you're married, not under any circumstances. I think he must have heard the same talks as a lot of you ;) I do wish we could differentiate between "not okay for an unmarried 19-year-old male whose focus is supposed to be on missionary work" and "not okay for a married woman who probably isn't going to experience orgasm otherwise." But the leadership of the Church won't even say the word "sex" :shock: so I don't think we can expect any kind of clarification.

I do think it's really unfair how the Lord designed our bodies differently. It's almost impossible for a healthy, functioning male not to experience orgasm as the result of regular, garden-variety sex. And it's almost impossible for a woman to. (This is a fact I've even seen acknowledged in LDS-centric sex books!) To me, that is another sign of how much the Lord prefers men over women, that he loves and respects males a lot more than he does females. Because the kind of sex that is generally regarded as kosher in the LDS faith is going to result in a male orgasm but not a female one.

I even explained this to my husband and he didn't have a good response, but he still will not back down on the "masturbation is always wrong, always" viewpoint. His argument is that masturbation is selfish and one-sided. Of course, regular ol' intercourse can also be selfish and one-sided but that has the Lord's stamp of approval (and it's almost always one-sided in the favor of the male).

I don't think it's wrong within a marriage and several posters have mentioned situations where it's even been encouraged by PH leaders. I would never judge or condemn a married couple who has decided it's within healthy and appropriate boundaries for their marriage. But as much as I may want to, I can't do it knowing that my husband is opposed to it.
There was a time when I'd said "no, no way!" Over time I became aware of my prejudices being based on old assumptions and I also became more aware of the different biology of men and women. Your husband probably said "no" as a defensive action, an insecurity about not fulfilling needs, being inadequate, you having sexual experience without him there and the fear that this could lead to you having less interest in sex with him and potentially leading to you looking at/thinking of other people. Give it time, let it settle.

I don't think it's evidence that God loves women less. I think it's a basic evolutionary trait (by divine design or not, who knows). To perpetuate humanity the male needs to be able to provide his part of the bargain "on demand." As lovely as intimacy is, it's not really the main function of sex. We like to think it is, and it is of course a lovely, wonderful part of life and a meaningful relationship. But that's not the primary function. It was designed first to procreate. I'm in no way saying "like it or lump it," I'm just pointing out why human biology might be designed that way.

If this next bit gets too 'R' rated mods, feel free to edit. And apologies if Joni this isn't what you asked. What if you asked him about masturbation while you were together? "Assisted" masturbation. There's a good book for him to read here, but I don't know how you could convince him to read it. Also, again not sure how he would respond, but he might be open to some low-key 'toys' (nothing freaky or 'porno'). Your husband simply needs to understand that the way a woman has a good time is not the same way he does. It's not his fault. It's not because he's "not good at it" or "inadequate" (in any given "department"). Your body was just designed differently and he needs to get his head round this. It's fairly rare that when a man is asked whether he'd like to "spice things up" that he says no.

[Admin Note: There is nothing in this comment that is out of line or needs to be edited.]

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DarkJedi
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Re: Um...self-stimulation okay in marriage?

Post by DarkJedi » 26 Nov 2013, 10:29

Joni wrote:I actually brought this up with my husband last night and he gave me the kneejerk response: nope, not okay ever, not if you're married, not under any circumstances. I think he must have heard the same talks as a lot of you ;) I do wish we could differentiate between "not okay for an unmarried 19-year-old male whose focus is supposed to be on missionary work" and "not okay for a married woman who probably isn't going to experience orgasm otherwise." But the leadership of the Church won't even say the word "sex" :shock: so I don't think we can expect any kind of clarification.

I do think it's really unfair how the Lord designed our bodies differently. It's almost impossible for a healthy, functioning male not to experience orgasm as the result of regular, garden-variety sex. And it's almost impossible for a woman to. (This is a fact I've even seen acknowledged in LDS-centric sex books!) To me, that is another sign of how much the Lord prefers men over women, that he loves and respects males a lot more than he does females. Because the kind of sex that is generally regarded as kosher in the LDS faith is going to result in a male orgasm but not a female one.

I even explained this to my husband and he didn't have a good response, but he still will not back down on the "masturbation is always wrong, always" viewpoint. His argument is that masturbation is selfish and one-sided. Of course, regular ol' intercourse can also be selfish and one-sided but that has the Lord's stamp of approval (and it's almost always one-sided in the favor of the male).

I don't think it's wrong within a marriage and several posters have mentioned situations where it's even been encouraged by PH leaders. I would never judge or condemn a married couple who has decided it's within healthy and appropriate boundaries for their marriage. But as much as I may want to, I can't do it knowing that my husband is opposed to it.
Well, then, he's not keeping up with current church teachings on the subject, but then again, there are lots of others in that boat. While there are definitely those whom I won't name here that seem to have been obsessed with the subject, the official church stance is very muted from earlier times. If a sin at all, it is a lesser sin IMO.
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Curt Sunshine
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Re: Um...self-stimulation okay in marriage?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 26 Nov 2013, 10:34

It's fairly rare that when a man is asked whether he'd like to "spice things up" that he says no.


Unless he is part of a conservative religious community and was taught that sex is necessary but dirty or dangerous.

I get frustrated when Mormons see sex as dirty, since that's the exact opposite of what our theology teaches, but we obsess so much over it being dangerous (especially in the formative years) that it often morphs for too many members into a version of "dirty" - and we tend to tie that danger to the physical pleasure part of sex, which can lead to difficulty for members to "let loose" and "spice things up".

I hope your husband can begin to see things differently, but, even if it does happen, it might take a while. The issue isn't strictly or even primarily a religious thing; it fundamentally is a biological difference in understanding, as mackay11 said.
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church0333
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Re: Um...self-stimulation okay in marriage?

Post by church0333 » 27 Nov 2013, 00:25

I would tell your husband, " don't knock it until you try it". There is nothing sexier than to see your parter feel fulfilled.

sbc1983
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Re: Um...self-stimulation okay in marriage?

Post by sbc1983 » 17 Dec 2020, 19:21

You’ll probably get so many different opinions.

My wife and I have been married for 14 years now with three kids. Not once did I ever think we both be okay with self pleasure until just this year.

She obviously doesn’t crave intimacy like I do (is it a guy thing?! Yeah probably) so we are both 100% onboard with keeping our bedroom life to us and if she needs to release so goes for it. If I need to I go for it and when we are both on board we then are able to do it together.

I think it has eased a lot of pent up tension for me because I’m a guy and I enjoy it and it takes less for me to release than it does for her and so instead of nagging her about it all the time, we are both okay just doing it for ourselves whenever we feel the need to.

I don’t feel any less worthy and it has strengthened our marriage big time! So, as long as you and your significant other are both okay with it, go for it!

She probably uses a variety of things 1-2x a week while I am more frequent and it helps me sleep better when she’s working graveyards sometimes!

Hope that hells!

Roy
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Re: Um...self-stimulation okay in marriage?

Post by Roy » 20 Dec 2020, 10:28

I really do think that this is becoming a generational thing with the "younger" couples not really seeing porn free self-stimulation in marriage as a problem.

I observe that professionals like Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife are helping to create greater acceptance around this area of what might be acceptable in the intimate lives of husbands and wives.

Church leaders have remained quiet on it for a long time. That is probably just about the best thing we could hope for under the circumstances.
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SilentDawning
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Re: Um...self-stimulation okay in marriage?

Post by SilentDawning » 20 Dec 2020, 12:22

There was a time when leaders were asking whether the members were "mouthing their wives" or equivalent statements to women. I have read posts and also listened to a recording of an ex-member where leaders asked this question. They eventually stopped asking those questions presumably due to member backlash. I don't know when this happened -- it was before I was married 25 years ago. But I believe it happened.

My position on self-stimulation is that in some cases, it actually holds marriages together. In situations where one spouse can't perform sexually, or won't participate in any sex act , it is a way of relieving tension. Whether it's OK to use pornography with it is an other question I won't try to tackle here, but I agree with the consensus that the church has no place in the bedrooms of married or single folk acting alone.
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SamBee
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Re: Um...self-stimulation okay in marriage?

Post by SamBee » 21 Dec 2020, 06:42

This is one of those questions I've always wondered about but was afraid to ask. The other alternatives in a sexless marriage include celibacy, adultery or heading in the direction of rape.
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Limhah
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Re: Um...self-stimulation okay in marriage?

Post by Limhah » 29 Jan 2021, 22:00

This is one of those delicate subjects that are a little awkward/uncomfortable to get into much. :oops:

Logically I could go the route of arguing that it's all self-stimulation one way or the other, the only difference is if you're only dealing w/one body or more than one. And that, to boot, the real sensations all take place in the brain anyway. But bad relationship habits reinforce more dysfunctional relationships, so you have to consider that aspect if you expect to be involved in any kind of in-person relationships going forward.

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