If the KVJ is in the BoM can it still be inspired?

Public forum to discuss questions about Mormon history and doctrine.
User avatar
Reflexzero
Posts: 165
Joined: 15 Aug 2012, 19:58

If the KVJ is in the BoM can it still be inspired?

Post by Reflexzero » 28 May 2013, 14:14

Probably a good thing the KJV is not subject to copyright laws, as that would change the opinion of the myriad of borrowed lines of text appearing throughout the BoM. Lawyers would have a field day and make lots of money.

Personally I find it very unlikely that Joseph would take the time to exhaustively compare two scripts, and then choose to use secondary source material for use in the primary manuscript. It sets off my baloney meter. It seems way more work than straight translation, considering he would have to translate each word or paragraph he was comparing anyway.

Without taking the time to translate and compare, it would be very difficult to know where to start, where to stop, what to borrow, and in what order to arrange the borrowed text. Thus, I don't buy the argument that it was somehow easier.

Bds4206
Posts: 25
Joined: 30 May 2012, 04:21

If the KVJ is in the BoM can it still be inspired?

Post by Bds4206 » 28 May 2013, 16:11

Cadence wrote:Most questions could be put to rest if we had those gold plates to examine. Until then it is fiction from the get go to me. I just no longer can give religion a pass on supporting evidence when I can not do it in the rest of my life.

The fact that the Angels came back for the plates that were originally buried in a hill is the part of that whole story that is maybe the most unbelievable to me. I mean, those plates sat in upstate New York for all that time and angels were concerned about others examining them? That's very fishy to me.

User avatar
Reflexzero
Posts: 165
Joined: 15 Aug 2012, 19:58

If the KVJ is in the BoM can it still be inspired?

Post by Reflexzero » 28 May 2013, 21:32

Bds4206 wrote:
The fact that the Angels came back for the plates that were originally buried in a hill is the part of that whole story that is maybe the most unbelievable to me. I mean, those plates sat in upstate New York for all that time and angels were concerned about others examining them? That's very fishy to me.
Yes, I think Joseph would have been hounded endlessly if people thought he had golden plates. He had to be rid of them somehow, and those magic moments only happen when no one is around to see.

User avatar
wuwei
Posts: 145
Joined: 23 Jan 2013, 06:35

Re: If the KVJ is in the BoM can it still be inspired?

Post by wuwei » 29 May 2013, 08:09

I would assume he just put some pages from the KJV in his hat with the stone. ;)

I actually don't have a problem with it so much.

I'm with BDS in that the plates being taken to heaven weakens the while story for me.

But at this point even if it was all made up I still can find value in it. There are too many parts that ring true to me... At least doctrinally... Maybe not historically...

User avatar
mackay11
Posts: 2045
Joined: 01 Nov 2012, 18:01

If the KVJ is in the BoM can it still be inspired?

Post by mackay11 » 29 May 2013, 18:12

wuwei wrote:I would assume he just put some pages from the KJV in his hat with the stone. ;)

I actually don't have a problem with it so much.

I'm with BDS in that the plates being taken to heaven weakens the while story for me.

But at this point even if it was all made up I still can find value in it. There are too many parts that ring true to me... At least doctrinally... Maybe not historically...
Given the cost of a bible in those days compared to a farm labourers wages... probably not going to be tearing pages out of one :)

But I agree with your point.

User avatar
DBMormon
Posts: 806
Joined: 18 Aug 2012, 04:42
Location: Ohio near Kirtland
Contact:

Re: If the KVJ is in the BoM can it still be inspired?

Post by DBMormon » 29 May 2013, 18:26

Without the internet and limited access to information, books were the be all end all. Since the Bible was widely read, I would naturally expect Joseph t have parts of it memorized. That said if he came to something familiar on the plates, I would expect him to translate using similar phrases he had memorized. This seems very natural to me.

User avatar
mackay11
Posts: 2045
Joined: 01 Nov 2012, 18:01

If the KVJ is in the BoM can it still be inspired?

Post by mackay11 » 01 Jun 2013, 00:06

DBMormon wrote:Without the internet and limited access to information, books were the be all end all. Since the Bible was widely read, I would naturally expect Joseph t have parts of it memorized. That said if he came to something familiar on the plates, I would expect him to translate using similar phrases he had memorized. This seems very natural to me.
There are issues with this perspective if it's chased to its ultimate conclusion. But this probably isn't the place for it.

johnh
Posts: 360
Joined: 07 Oct 2012, 13:23

Re: If the KVJ is in the BoM can it still be inspired?

Post by johnh » 02 Jun 2013, 01:05

mackay11 wrote:
DBMormon wrote:Without the internet and limited access to information, books were the be all end all. Since the Bible was widely read, I would naturally expect Joseph t have parts of it memorized. That said if he came to something familiar on the plates, I would expect him to translate using similar phrases he had memorized. This seems very natural to me.
Doesn't work for me. Just read about this in rough stone tonight. Everyone reported Joseph looked in the hat and saw words and read the sentences then Oliver wrote them. He even spelled out the unusual names...so if Devine then he would have read them as they were written...not as he memorized or was familiar with them.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

User avatar
wayfarer
Posts: 1335
Joined: 09 Nov 2011, 15:59
Location: in ye olde world
Contact:

Re: If the KVJ is in the BoM can it still be inspired?

Post by wayfarer » 02 Jun 2013, 05:04

if i believe that God dictates what he wants his children to know in unambiguous terms through his prophets, and only through his prophets, then the direct quoting of the KJV, the strange use of Jacobian English, and other things, like the "borrowing" of the Masonic ritual...would all profoundly bother me.

but, since i don't believe that god dictates his will verbatim through a single prophet, i have no issue with a person revered as a prophet pulling together existing materials to create "scripture".

When I was young, before correlation took firm hold over church curriculum, we used to celebrate the differences between LDS beliefs about God and that of mainstream, creedal christianity. We used to talk more about how god did not create the world "from nothing", but rather, organized matter that already existed. we used to say, in our temple endowment, that the adam and eve account was simply figurative. we used to encourage people to seek out of the best books wisdom and knowledge upon, upon which the church itself had no exclusive hold.

in this worldview, as god created the world from existing mateials, then it should be no surprise that his prophet should create an LDS world of scripture from existing materials.

yet today, i believe that mormonism is as fundamentalist as the hardest evangelical fundamentalism. while there is the "translated correctly" loophole for the bible, the book of mormon is the god-dictated verbatim word of the Lord, and every historical and truth claim, including the adam and eve account, is literally true. since is not the author of confusion, and is, according to the creeds, all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-benevolent, then god could not allow his word to be anything but verbatim. As Tad Callister said,
Tad Callister wrote:That is the genius of the Book of Mormon—there is no middle ground. It is either the word of God as professed, or it is a total fraud. This book does not merely claim to be a moral treatise or theological commentary or collection of insightful writings. It claims to be the word of God—every sentence, every verse, every page. Joseph Smith declared that an angel of God directed him to gold plates, which contained the writings of prophets in ancient America, and that he translated those plates by divine powers. If that story is true, then the Book of Mormon is holy scripture, just as it professes to be; if not, it is a sophisticated but, nonetheless, diabolical hoax.
I categorically reject Tad Callister's statement. There is a middle ground: an understanding that god, however we define him or her, works through the mind and heart of inspired people, organizing from existing material to emerge a view of the divine. and coming to realize this Middle Way, the idea that Joseph borrowed KJV, used archaic language to sound more "scriptural", and borrowed from other sources to create scripture and ritual pose no problems at all: it's the Way things work.
"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak." Lao Tzu.
My seat in the bloggernacle: http://wayfaringfool.blogspot.com

User avatar
PiperAlpha
Posts: 176
Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 05:14

Re: If the KVJ is in the BoM can it still be inspired?

Post by PiperAlpha » 02 Jun 2013, 07:09

Wayfarer, I completely agree with you. There is middle ground for those who wish to find it. Those that just want the distinctive extreme options to make it easier to process are choosing to ignore a lot of other options.

Borrowing from the KJV for the BoM is an important factor in seeing how God allows prophets to receive revelation and be influences by their world view, and as seers, put the world view and materials into a context that is expands our view of this world and continue to stretch to reach up to heaven.

Word for word dictation is just not the way it always works. There are other options, and therefore one doesn't have to throw it all out as a hoax because of some parts that are not understood.
“As individually and collectively we increase our knowledge, acceptance, and application of gospel principles, we become less dependent on Church programs. Our lives become gospel centered.”
Elder Ronald E. Poelman, General Conference Oct 1984

Post Reply