Was 1978 the right year?

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Brian Johnston
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Re: Was 1978 the right year?

Post by Brian Johnston » 07 Jun 2012, 19:43

Let's make sure to keep this conversation constructive.
"It's strange to be here. The mystery never leaves you alone." -John O'Donohue, Anam Cara, speaking of experiencing life.

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Was 1978 the right year?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 07 Jun 2012, 20:41

I agree with Brian - and avoiding implying or stating that worthiness or righteousness had or has ANY relevance to holding the Priesthood is a good start. Just saying.

Was 1978 the right year? As I thought more about the actual questions, when parsed strictly, yes, it was the right year - from a purely practical standpoint. It was the earliest it could have happened, given the reality of the situation, so it was the right year - even if it was too late from every other standpoint imaginable.

Imo, the real question isn't whether or not it was the right year; rather, it's WHY that year was the earliest it could have happened - and what that can teach us about ourselves and God.

I've given my opinion: church leaders and members were reflective of their time in many ways, including being racist when it came down to the final taboo - interracial marriage and sealing; they didn't ask God - instead ignoring obvious practical reality and relying on apostate Christian doctrine of their time; God walked away from it and said:
"Let them live in their own constructed captivity until they collectively come begging me to fix the crapfest they created - since I'm not going to deny anyone eternal blessings in the end just because others couldn't rise above the natural man."


The fact that it took so long for that to happen - for the right year to arrive - says a LOT about humans, imo - even really good ones who are trying to live good lives and be disciples of Christ.

That's how I see it right now, but I reserve the right to admit later I'm spectacularly wrong if I come to understand differently in the future. (Maybe that should be part of my signature, as well.)

As is the case with most topics :oops: , I've written extensively about the ban and race on my personal blog. If you're interested, go ahead and read them. (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com)
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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baldzach
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Re: Was 1978 the right year?

Post by baldzach » 07 Jun 2012, 21:06

Allow me to rephrase.... Did not mean to stir up the hornets' nest with a bad choice of words.
Women currently, and blacks formerly, will not be held accountable for not having qualified for the priesthood. I believe God is merciful above all...

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mormonheretic
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Re: Was 1978 the right year?

Post by mormonheretic » 07 Jun 2012, 23:40

How about this?
Women currently, and blacks formerly, will not be held accountable for not having received the priesthood. I believe God is merciful above all...
Kendall White Jr. and Daryl White did a survey at BYU on black attitudes about the priesthood ban; black people gave 5 responses to why the ban existed.

1. lack of historic or even moral readiness on the parts of blacks themselves
2. simply a great quandary (they don't know)
3. Whether the traditional teachings had a divine or human origin was no longer relevant, and nothing was to be gained by hashing it over.
4. the church had simply allowed human error to influence church policy, because of political compromises (in Missouri or Utah) or because of the need to mollify a few slave-owning converts.
5. blacks had been denied the priesthood all those years because God knew that whites were not morally and spiritually ready to accept black members into full fellowship. This position carried the implication that the blacks had demonstrated superior moral strength through their patience and forgiveness.

Now the study was not a "Random sample", so results cannot be used as a statistically reliable indicator of black thought, but it certainly represents a diversity of opinion among blacks. Option 2 may be the best, but I found the idea of #5 especially interesting. Can we properly blame the ban on whites lack of preparedness? I think such an idea is plausible. Option 4 is very interesting too.

I did a big write up on the study last year. See http://www.mormonheretic.org/2011/04/14 ... ds-church/

GBSmith
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Re: Was 1978 the right year?

Post by GBSmith » 08 Jun 2012, 06:55

mormonheretic wrote:1. lack of historic or even moral readiness on the parts of blacks themselves
2. simply a great quandary (they don't know)
3. Whether the traditional teachings had a divine or human origin was no longer relevant, and nothing was to be gained by hashing it over.
4. the church had simply allowed human error to influence church policy, because of political compromises (in Missouri or Utah) or because of the need to mollify a few slave-owning converts.
5. blacks had been denied the priesthood all those years because God knew that whites were not morally and spiritually ready to accept black members into full fellowship. This position carried the implication that the blacks had demonstrated superior moral strength through their patience and forgiveness.

Now the study was not a "Random sample", so results cannot be used as a statistically reliable indicator of black thought, but it certainly represents a diversity of opinion among blacks. Option 2 may be the best, but I found the idea of #5 especially interesting. Can we properly blame the ban on whites lack of preparedness? I think such an idea is plausible. Option 4 is very interesting too.
A case could be made for #4 based on historical research though it's all subject to interpretation and observer bias. The others all depend on where you sit as to level of belief in the whole idea of priesthood and the restoration. My issue with #5 is that it seems to be a spin on the idea that women being more naturally pure, holy, and good don't need the priesthood and it's just men, carnal, etc. by nature, who need it to bring them to the level of women.

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baldzach
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Re: Was 1978 the right year?

Post by baldzach » 08 Jun 2012, 11:03

mormonheretic wrote:How about this?
Women currently, and blacks formerly, will not be held accountable for not having received the priesthood. I believe God is merciful above all...
Love it. Thank you.

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Shawn
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Re: Was 1978 the right year?

Post by Shawn » 08 Jun 2012, 12:17

Yes, it was the right time. If anyone has any problems with this issue, read this: https://byustudies.byu.edu/articleDownl ... 84dcd9.pdf

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cwald
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Re: Was 1978 the right year?

Post by cwald » 08 Jun 2012, 13:16

Quote myself from the other thread
I read all 75 pages. It didn't make me feel any better.
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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Heber13
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Re: Was 1978 the right year?

Post by Heber13 » 08 Jun 2012, 13:25

Shawn wrote:Yes, it was the right time. If anyone has any problems with this issue, read this: https://byustudies.byu.edu/articleDownl ... 84dcd9.pdf
Shawn, thanks for that link. It really was a great article about the revelatory process, and the good man at heart that Pres Kimball was.

But honestly, it doesn't help the problem I have with the church perpetuating a policy for over a hundred years prior to this. It is good there are prophets that can recognize or correct our mistakes of the past. But it doesn't mean there are no mistakes or sins in our past. It just doesn't.

And I wish the church would just say that and own it, not try to excuse it.

No, it's still a problematic issue for me.

On another subject...Pres Kimball sounds like a great man, a true prophet of God.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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cwald
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Re: Was 1978 the right year?

Post by cwald » 08 Jun 2012, 13:40

Heber13 wrote:
On another subject...Pres Kimball sounds like a great man, a true prophet of God.
Agreed. And so was Hugh Brown.
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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