Was 1978 the right year?

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mormonheretic
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Was 1978 the right year?

Post by mormonheretic » 04 Jun 2012, 00:42

I did a transcript of a Mormon Matters interview discussing the priesthood ban. Marguerite Driessen gave a very interesting perspective. There are many who complain that the Church was too slow in granting the priesthood and temple access to blacks, but Marguerite has a different perspective. She knows the girls that were escorted to school in the Brown vs Board of Education case that allowed integration into white schools. Driessen says that these girls (pre-teens) were yelled at, pelted with rotten food and feces was thrown at them. She feels that if the ban had been lifted sooner, such incidents may have taken place at Mormon churches, and God didn't want that. It was an interesting perspective, and I wanted to see what you thought?

The full post is available at http://www.wheatandtares.org/2012/06/04 ... ight-year/

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Heber13
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Re: Was 1978 the right year?

Post by Heber13 » 04 Jun 2012, 04:05

I don't find it compelling.

To me, it's up there with "God was trying to protect them from falling".

God didn't protect Joseph and HyruM, or the people at Hauns Mill, so how would this argument fit His MO?

Persecution has always been part of religion, unfortunately. I think they are grasping at excuses when there is no good rational reason, nor doctrinal reason, for the ban. It is not a flattering part of Mormon history and they need to just come forward with that and own it, not keep looking for excuses that perpetuate or try to justify their past wrongs.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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wayfarer
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Re: Was 1978 the right year?

Post by wayfarer » 04 Jun 2012, 06:18

MH, it's an apologetic argument, full of flaws. The idea that the "church was too slow" begs the question whether the church was indeed correct in EVER discriminating against blacks -- it was wrong in doing so the moment BY instituted this bigotry -- but this doesn't answer that. Moreover, Brown v Board of Education enforced its law on all people, whereas Church policy only affects members. It's completely flawed thinking to suppose that non-members would have protested the LDS church for changing its policy for membership or admittance into the priesthood, as such has no effect whatsoever on nonmembers.

I just don't see the argement in the least: other churches removed their bans long before the LDS church did, and many admitted that discrimination was an error, an artifact of sinful men. The LDS church attempted and some still attempt to justify this as god's will. Frankly, this paints god as a bigot and should be categorically rejected as anything worth an apologetic response, other than a genuine apology by the church for being wrong.
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Re: Was 1978 the right year?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 04 Jun 2012, 12:51

I don't buy it. Members like Darius Gray faced stuff that was just as bad from members - really, truly appalling stuff.

As I've said, I think God threw his hands in the air and said, "When you've humbled yourselves sufficiently to ask sincerely and realize you did this all on your own - that it wasn't my will, let me know." It's just that nobody heard Him, because they weren't asking - until Pres. McKay started to lay the groundwork.
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Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

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Re: Was 1978 the right year?

Post by doug » 04 Jun 2012, 13:22

Lame.
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Re: Was 1978 the right year?

Post by mormonheretic » 04 Jun 2012, 15:51

I don't know what to think of Marguerite's argument, but I thought it was an interesting perspective. Wayfarer, I don't know if you're aware, but the NAACP was planning to picket General Conference in the 1960s because of the priesthood ban, so non-Members were upset with the ban. If memory serves me correctly, there was some sort of molotav cocktail or something like that in regards to a Stanford-BYU game I believe. Stanford was very critical of the ban and quit playing BYU in athletics to protest the ban.

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Re: Was 1978 the right year?

Post by cwald » 04 Jun 2012, 16:18

I would be edited and moderated for profanity if I answered the question honestly. ;)
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Bruce in Montana
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Re: Was 1978 the right year?

Post by Bruce in Montana » 04 Jun 2012, 17:36

Yep.
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Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
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Re: Was 1978 the right year?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 04 Jun 2012, 18:34

I was wondering if you'd comment on this one, Bruce. :wave:
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Brian Johnston
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Re: Was 1978 the right year?

Post by Brian Johnston » 05 Jun 2012, 05:25

I just plain think the leaders and members were wrong about that issue in the past. The reason for the ban was the ignorance and stubbornness (lack of humility) of our people. We changed eventually, along with the changes in the wider culture towards tolerance and diversity, but we changed slower than many other social and religious organizations. That is an embarrassment that will not fade for many generations.

I'll try to be more charitable in response to the proposed explanation by Sister Driessen though. All of us try to come up with the best answers we can to explain things, and to make meaning for us in the present from the past history and events. That answer probably works better for her. She *EXPERIENCED* and was the victim of that kind of racism in her earlier life. She lived the history as it unfolded. I don't have her life context, or her desires perhaps to preserve more faith in the direct hand of God orchestrating history. I tend to see a much less directly involved God, and tend to think we do all this crap to ourselves for by our own misguided hands.

But Sister Driessen is free to see it the way that makes the most sense to her. I feel like she has more of a claim to that in this regard than I do. I can't prove her explanation is wrong. I just tend to think in more naturalistic terms. I only remember this stuff vaguely as a young child. I was 9 years old in 1978.
"It's strange to be here. The mystery never leaves you alone." -John O'Donohue, Anam Cara, speaking of experiencing life.

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