Polygamy and Brother Joseph's DNA

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Tom Haws
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Polygamy and Brother Joseph's DNA

Post by Tom Haws » 11 May 2011, 12:44

What do we know about children of Joseph Smith's 30+/- marriages? Are there DNA tests of alleged descendents? Are there studies of contemporary attitudes toward birth control and abortion? I'd like to see all related information laid out on the StayLDS table if we are up to it.
Tom (aka Justin Martyr/Justin Morning/Jacob Marley/Kupord Maizzed)
Higley and Guadalupe
Gilbert, Arizona
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Sure, any religion would do. But I'm LDS.
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Orson
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Re: Polygamy and Brother Joseph's DNA

Post by Orson » 11 May 2011, 13:14

What I have read of the tests performed nothing is conclusive.
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Re: Polygamy and Brother Joseph's DNA

Post by Curt Sunshine » 11 May 2011, 13:27

What Orson said.

There are, I think, three instances remaining where some people think there might have been offspring, but the actual testing that has been done on other "possibilities" has been negative thus far - working strictly off of memory right now.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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mercyngrace
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Re: Polygamy and Brother Joseph's DNA

Post by mercyngrace » 11 May 2011, 13:32

Here's presentation by Ugo Perego. http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences ... ealed.html

It's a few years old (2008). For those with undiagnosed adult ADD like me ;) you can read an abbreviated verson with bullet points here:

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/DNA.htm
Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. ~ Luke 7:47

Roy
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Re: Polygamy and Brother Joseph's DNA

Post by Roy » 11 May 2011, 13:45

There have yet to be any confirmed descendants of JS outside of his marriage to his first wife Emma. Said another way: Although there have been rumors, isolated accounts, and circumstantial evidence for offspring from Brother Joseph's polygamous relationships, this has never been confirmed. I understand that The Joseph and Emma foundation stand willing to accept any descendants of JS and would accept a DNA test as "proof." There does seem to be numerous documented reports of there being an element of sexual intercourse in (at least) many of the marriages. Why this did not result in offspring is anyone's guess.
Tom Haws wrote:Are there studies of contemporary attitudes toward birth control and abortion?
I'm not quite sure what you are referring to here. Are you suggesting there may have been a form of birth control or abortion that prevented the births? I have never heard that before. A common theory is that the children would be given to other couples to raise as their own to prevent the suspicions of why so many "single" mothers in Nauvoo.

While I was writing Ray & M&G posted. If any of the info has been duplicated, please forgive.
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DevilsAdvocate
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Re: Polygamy and Brother Joseph's DNA

Post by DevilsAdvocate » 11 May 2011, 15:41

Tom Haws wrote:What do we know about children of Joseph Smith's 30+/- marriages? Are there DNA tests of alleged descendents? Are there studies of contemporary attitudes toward birth control and abortion? I'd like to see all related information laid out on the StayLDS table if we are up to it.
My favorite conspiracy theory about this was that maybe John C. Bennett was performing abortions and that could be one reason there are no known descendents of Joseph Smith and any of these wives other than Emma.
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Tom Haws
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Re: Polygamy and Brother Joseph's DNA

Post by Tom Haws » 11 May 2011, 16:47

Abortion is a possibility, but birth control is less scandalous. Just to get everything on the table, we don't have to stick to the extremes, we can cover everything on the spectrum too. What were contemporary attitudes and practices on birth control? Any Nauvoo stuff about that?

But where abortion is concerned, I wish I had some sense of the general sensibilities of that day, and of Joseph Smith, regarding it.

Things just aren't totally adding up for me about the whole polygamy/polyandry affair. And I'm wondering if there may be some sliver of data that somehow I have missed. I've read about John C. Bennet's mention of abortion, but why nothing about birth control? And why no conclusive DNA tests or photographic resemblances to indicate children? Joseph wasn't sterile, and neither were all his wives. What was life like back then? What was going on?

Should we maybe gather here the key original sources?
Tom (aka Justin Martyr/Justin Morning/Jacob Marley/Kupord Maizzed)
Higley and Guadalupe
Gilbert, Arizona
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Sure, any religion would do. But I'm LDS.
"There are no academic issues. Everything is emotional to somebody." Ray Degraw at www.StayLDS.com

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Re: Polygamy and Brother Joseph's DNA

Post by Curt Sunshine » 11 May 2011, 19:40

Honestly, Tom, I don't care enough to try - and I want to emphasize that I personally don't like speculation about stuff like abortion in any instance, not just relative to Joseph. I really don't like conspiracy theories in general, and that one just doesn't have any interest for me.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Tom Haws
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Re: Polygamy and Brother Joseph's DNA

Post by Tom Haws » 11 May 2011, 19:52

You are excused from that part of the discussion, then, I guess. :D

Regarding DNA tests, I accept them, and it seems to me that even if there is a DNA match on one or two possible JS polygamy offspring, it still is very scant to account for 30 +/- marriages. Shouldn't we see a handful of children at least? How many pregnancies did it take in those days to produce a grandchild? Maybe I need to go read In Sacred Loneliness.

Wikipedia lists five possible children, I see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_o ... _Smith,_Jr. I suppose maybe that's a reasonable, if small, number considering he wasn't really doing his husbandly duty in the long run with all 30 wives. Opinions?
Last edited by Tom Haws on 11 May 2011, 20:11, edited 2 times in total.
Tom (aka Justin Martyr/Justin Morning/Jacob Marley/Kupord Maizzed)
Higley and Guadalupe
Gilbert, Arizona
----
Sure, any religion would do. But I'm LDS.
"There are no academic issues. Everything is emotional to somebody." Ray Degraw at www.StayLDS.com

Curt Sunshine
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Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: Polygamy and Brother Joseph's DNA

Post by Curt Sunshine » 11 May 2011, 19:55

Thank you, sir. :lol:
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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