Modern Day Revelation? Not so Sure

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Cadence
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Modern Day Revelation? Not so Sure

Post by Cadence » 21 Feb 2010, 06:47

After reading some other threads on who gets revelation in the church it got me thinking again about if anyone gets revelation. It brings to mind a SS lesson from last year on modern day revelation. The usual things like blacks and the priesthood, correlation, temple building were all listed as modern day revelation. Do we really credit these things with revelation from on high. How come our expectations on revelation since the days of Joseph has become so diluted. We have gone from "Thus Sayeth the Lord" to a warm fuzzy. Personally I think there has not been a significant piece of revelation in 150 years in the church. There has been nothing that any competent leader could not come up with on their own. Not to say there is not inspiration on programs and policy perhaps, but nothing to get excited about. So considering we base so much of our theology on modern day revelation, does this weaken the churches position since there is no revelation to speak of.
Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction--faith in fiction is a damnable false hope. Thomas A. Edison

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” Neil deGrasse Tyson

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Tom Haws
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Re: Modern Day Revelation? Not so Sure

Post by Tom Haws » 21 Feb 2010, 10:31

Cadence wrote:Personally I think there has not been a significant piece of revelation in 150 years in the church.
:shock: I must remember to invite you to my universe for tea sometime. :D
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Sure, any religion would do. But I'm LDS.
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allquieton
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Re: Modern Day Revelation? Not so Sure

Post by allquieton » 21 Feb 2010, 13:04

I have wondered the same thing. Prophets in the Book of Mormon do mention getting guidance from the HG. But also, they frequently mention revelation given to them in dreams, in person by angels, or by hearing an actual voice. (Interestingly Nephi even differentiates between the voice of the Father and Christ.) They seem very particular about quoting actual words that God told them. Our church leaders don't seem to do these things. They talk more about inspiration from the HG. I don't think any of them have said anything close to "Thus saith the Lord," for a long time.

That said, I don't believe revelation has ended. I just think our church leaders may not be true prophets. Which doesn't mean they are in any way unfit, or weren't called, to lead the church. There may not be any prophets around right now. Or they may be somewhere where we aren't hearing them. Hard to say. I'm still trying to get to the bottom of it.
INTP

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Modern Day Revelation? Not so Sure

Post by Curt Sunshine » 21 Feb 2010, 14:13

I think many of us misunderstand revelation badly.

Do we have modern revelations in the LDS Church? There's not a doubt in my mind - and everyone knows I don't say that much. Do we have modern revelations outside the LDS Church? There's not a doubt in my mind. Do we have modern-day prophets in the LDS Church? Absolutely, in my mind - at many levels. Are there modern-day prophets outside the LDS Church? Absolutely, in my mind.

I really do believe that we dont' believe what we see, but rather that we see what we believe.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Tom Haws
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Re: Modern Day Revelation? Not so Sure

Post by Tom Haws » 21 Feb 2010, 17:07

What Ray said. :-)
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Sure, any religion would do. But I'm LDS.
"There are no academic issues. Everything is emotional to somebody." Ray Degraw at www.StayLDS.com

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Brian Johnston
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Re: Modern Day Revelation? Not so Sure

Post by Brian Johnston » 21 Feb 2010, 22:13

Well said Ray.

I think as much or more revelation today, much MUCH less drama. Isn't better? I think so.

I know what you mean though (I think). When many of us talk about Church "revelation," we are thinking of amazing new things like in the early days. The problem is, the foundation is there now, with a lot of stuff removed that didn't stand the test of time (was not permanently "true"). That's good too, but the dramatic part of the big "restoration" is done now. It's probably for the best. We barely survived that is it was.
"It's strange to be here. The mystery never leaves you alone." -John O'Donohue, Anam Cara, speaking of experiencing life.

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DevilsAdvocate
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Re: Modern Day Revelation? Not so Sure

Post by DevilsAdvocate » 22 Feb 2010, 10:17

Cadence wrote: We have gone from "Thus Sayeth the Lord" to a warm fuzzy. Personally I think there has not been a significant piece of revelation in 150 years in the church. There has been nothing that any competent leader could not come up with on their own.
I have noticed that Gordon B. Hinkley basically answered "I don't know" to a lot of basic questions in interviews and acted almost as if he wanted to pretend some of the real history and traditional doctrines of the church do not exist. Lately it seems like Monson and other top Church leaders mostly tell cute little inspirational stories and refer back to specially selected existing scriptures rather than trying to present anything original or ground-breaking.

Maybe it's just a case where they have learned their lesson after seeing Joseph Fielding Smith claim that men would never travel to the moon and Bruce R. McConkie make all kinds of claims about dinosaurs, the supposed racial inferiority of blacks, "no death before the Fall", etc. in Mormon Doctrine. Given the choice, I'd much rather see them remain silent when they're not sure about something rather than just act like they know everything and have all the answers.
Last edited by DevilsAdvocate on 01 Mar 2010, 10:44, edited 1 time in total.
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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Modern Day Revelation? Not so Sure

Post by hawkgrrrl » 22 Feb 2010, 11:23

We live in a much more rational age. It's not a "magical" worldview out there. It's much easier to make major pronouncements in a world where that's how things are done. Personally, I prefer a more rational type of revelation. I consider words like inspiration, discernment, and insight to all be roughly equivalent to "revelation" in their common usage. Revelation specifically means uncovering something that is hidden. That happens every time we learn something new. I am less interested in revelation on the church level, which is all good and well I suppose, than in my own ability to learn new things. Call me selfish!

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Cadence
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Re: Modern Day Revelation? Not so Sure

Post by Cadence » 22 Feb 2010, 18:59

allquieton wrote:
That said, I don't believe revelation has ended. I just think our church leaders may not be true prophets. Which doesn't mean they are in any way unfit, or weren't called, to lead the church. There may not be any prophets around right now. Or they may be somewhere where we aren't hearing them. Hard to say. I'm still trying to get to the bottom of it.
This made me think maybe the issue is not so much that there is not revelation but who gets it. Perhaps being a prophet is strictly a calling from God yet we have made it more an assignment. God calls who he will not who we say he should.
Last edited by Cadence on 28 Feb 2010, 20:02, edited 1 time in total.
Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction--faith in fiction is a damnable false hope. Thomas A. Edison

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” Neil deGrasse Tyson

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Modern Day Revelation? Not so Sure

Post by Curt Sunshine » 22 Feb 2010, 20:48

DevilsAdvocate, two things:

1) President Hinckley actually rarely said, ""I don't know," in a way that meant he was saying he didn't know. The exact phrase from the interview you are referencing is, "I don't know that . . ." That expression means "I wouldn't say it like that" in the way he used it - exactly as my father and many others I heard growing up in that area used to say all the time when they were trying to say "No" politely. I have heard that criticism over and over and over again, and it has gained a degree of credibility and hipness - but it just isn't what he actually meant in the interview.

2) Please don't use the phrase "Monson and Co." in this forum. It is a deraogatory phrase used a lot on anti-Mormon sites (and some fundamentalist sites), and we don't allow that type of phrase about anyone - regardless of religion or denomination or orientation or anything else. Pejoratives simply aren't welcome here.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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