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Re: lazy and lax - April 2021

Posted: 07 Apr 2021, 11:20
by DarkJedi
nibbler wrote:
07 Apr 2021, 07:58
If the goal was truly to get members to think for themselves I'd say they failed. You don't have to stick with them, but the lessons in the come follow me manuals are chock-full of indoctrination. If the goal was to get people to think for themselves the lessons could have been a simple, "Read Luke chapters 1-5 and discuss with family."
Absolutely. I was taken in by the rhetoric. Even Bednar, on the conservative side of the bunch, indicated it was important for us to learn and understand for ourselves and something along the line of not relying on others telling us what to believe. So much for that.

Re: lazy and lax - April 2021

Posted: 08 Apr 2021, 14:49
by FaithfulSkeptic
nibbler wrote:
06 Apr 2021, 11:35
It tells me that Nelson doesn't understand the position of the doubter. Perhaps he's a lazy learner. :angel:
I have one word to describe President Nelson's understanding of the position of the doubter: Myopic

Re: lazy and lax - April 2021

Posted: 08 Apr 2021, 16:30
by Minyan Man
This is a new article from the Liahona. There is no mention of lazy or lax. (A little joke.)

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

Re: lazy and lax - April 2021

Posted: 10 Apr 2021, 04:50
by DarkJedi
Recommended article by Jana Riess on the topic: https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/04 ... oming-lds/

Some outtakes:
But the second of his five points struck a nerve with some listeners within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If you have doubts about God, Jesus or Joseph Smith, Nelson said, you should “choose to believe and stay faithful. Take your questions to the Lord and to other faithful sources. Study with the desire to believe rather than with the hope that you can find a flaw in the fabric of a prophet’s life or a discrepancy in the scriptures. Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters.”
In my experience, few people who are having doubts study with the intent of finding flaws in the gospel or the church’s interpretations of it. Rather, they study to recover beliefs they feel are fraying. They want to return to that place of comfortable, taken-for-granted belief, so they double down on what the church has taught them to do (and which Nelson emphasizes in the first of his five points): Study the gospel and be engaged learners. Sometimes, they find answers that, rather than resolving their questions, introduce others.
This is not their fault, and we should stop placing the blame for it on their shoulders. It’s simply a natural evolution of faith to a deeper and more mature level.
But many times in life, we need to talk to someone who has “been there” and gone through the same feelings and experiences with which we are struggling. I’m part of a Crohn’s & Colitis Facebook group, for example, because there was a time our doctor thought a family member might have Crohn’s, and I wanted to learn as much as I could so I could help. Why would I try to learn about the condition from people who had not experienced it themselves? I instead learned by going straight to the source.
Nelson and other leaders want Latter-day Saint doubters to be able to magically know how to do something we’ve never taught believers how to do, which is to understand we could be very wrong in what we are currently thinking about religion.
Talking with those who are acquainted with doubt — particularly those who have come out on the other side with a more nuanced, deeper faith — helps people who have been raised to mistake belief for faith to not become overwhelmed when they experience the natural stirrings of doubt. By isolating those who experience doubt, ironically, the church risks pushing them further away from faith.

Re: lazy and lax - April 2021

Posted: 12 Apr 2021, 10:25
by Roy
I second the recommendation.
What’s tough for Latter-day Saint doubters is that the whole process of living comfortably with doubt means having humility. I don’t mean humility in the way members typically define it, which is about not being prideful in our talents or life circumstances. I mean humility about what we believe, which means being able to say about both our belief and our nonbelief, “You know, this is what I am thinking and feeling right now, but next year or even tomorrow, that could evolve.”
Nelson and other leaders want Latter-day Saint doubters to be able to magically know how to do something we’ve never taught believers how to do, which is to understand we could be very wrong in what we are currently thinking about religion.
While attending another Christian church I heard the pastor explain a doctrinal position that the church had (I think it was something about "the rapture") and then he said "we might be wrong about that and that is ok." It was a relatively small example but it stood out to me as outside of my normal experience. We are not used to saying and hearing that "we (as a church) might be wrong about that (tangential doctrine) and that is ok."

Re: lazy and lax - April 2021

Posted: 14 Apr 2021, 16:30
by Old-Timer
Late to this discussion, but I choose to interpret those statements as being about orthodox members who lazily accept everything they are told and put no effort into "real" understanding.

I am sure that is not how he meant it - but I do believe his words are accurate, even if our "target audiences" are different. :P

Re: lazy and lax - April 2021

Posted: 19 Apr 2021, 10:52
by On Own Now
This talk with emphasis on "lazy and lax" was the featured topic of our one SM talk yesterday. The person speaking obviously had no clue about the causes of FC and reiterated that faith is a choice.