StayLDS.com

Minyan Man wrote: ↑

10 May 2019, 09:36

I have a couple of questions related to our LDS belief system:
- Do we believe in acts of contrition? Definition: sorrow for and detestation of sin with a true purpose of amendment, arising from a love of God for His own perfections (perfect contrition) , or from some inferior motive, as fear of divine punishment

- Do we believe in Penance?
1. a punishment undergone in token of penitence for sin.
2. a penitential discipline imposed by church authority.
3, a sacrament, as in the Roman Catholic Church, consisting in a confession of sin, made with sorrow and with the intention of amendment, followed by the forgiveness of the sin.

I'm not talking about doing (3) "Hail Mary's & (2) "Our Fathers.
Could it be...
1. going on a mission?
2. doing service within the community?
3. acts of personal sacrifice without a public displace or recognition?

My own feeling is: #3 acts of personal sacrifice without public display, etc

MM -- I read the Miracle of Forgiveness, and SWK indicated that the healing must be bigger than the sore for us to receive forgiveness from God. I realize the church has de-emphasized this work but I considered this a non-objectionable part of his work. Other parts of it were downright destructive to people with a strong conscience.

As I point out, the focus of the scriptures on forgiveness appears to be on the injured person forgiving the wrong-doer. Also in the scriptures, the wrong-doer advice appears to focus on getting forgiveness from God. There is very little mention of what must be done to achieve forgiveness from other wronged mortals. Perhaps Christ thought people would use the latter to perpetuate conflict so he avoided it, even though he may have believed it is helpful to pursue not only forgiveness but a restoration of trust.

A couple of thoughts I had:

-I believe there is a strong difference between trust, forgiveness, and repentance.
-I don't believe what people say about God should be taken as a way to live our lives; or at least not without critical assessment. Even in the scriptures given, God's forgiveness of us is deemed different from the requirement He gives us to "forgive all men". But I do think those who try to "forgive all men" (not trust), irrespective of their repentance, will be happier and more at peace. I think it's a good thing to strive for.

dande48 wrote: ↑

10 May 2019, 10:23

-I don't believe what people say about God should be taken as a way to live our lives; or at least not without critical assessment. Even in the scriptures given, God's forgiveness of us is deemed different from the requirement He gives us to "forgive all men". But I do think those who try to "forgive all men" (not trust), irrespective of their repentance, will be happier and more at peace. I think it's a good thing to strive for.

The scriptures, are currently interpreted haven't worked for me in creating peace. I try and try to forgive and the bitterness remains. Only time has dulled certain injuries even when the perp hasn't been repentent or even apologized. I'm on a quest for happiness and I believe that should people close to me apologize repeatedly, and turn away from the injurious behavior, it leads to rather quick forgiveness and restoration of peace.

And I feel validated by the author of the book I'm reading who has observed some people need trust restored before they can forgive.

I guess that my journey has taken me to a place where I don't consider scripture inviolate or the final word. Experience, as well as advice of professionals can influence my interpretation and faith in them. And I've seen atrocities committed in the name of scripture.

SilentDawning wrote: ↑

10 May 2019, 18:22

I guess that my journey has taken me to a place where I don't consider scripture inviolate or the final word. Experience, as well as advice of professionals can influence my interpretation and faith in them. And I've seen atrocities committed in the name of scripture.

Wouldn't you say those attrocities are more often caused by lack of forgiveness, than forgiveness?

Are you happier now?

dande48 wrote: ↑

10 May 2019, 18:58

SilentDawning wrote: ↑

10 May 2019, 18:22

I guess that my journey has taken me to a place where I don't consider scripture inviolate or the final word. Experience, as well as advice of professionals can influence my interpretation and faith in them. And I've seen atrocities committed in the name of scripture.

1. Wouldn't you say those attrocities are more often caused by lack of forgiveness, than forgiveness?

2. Are you happier now?

1. Not sure if those atrocities were a result of forgiveness or not. Normally they are committed out of some kind of self-interest.
People tend to interpret scriptures as they see fit. That's why we have a million churches all based on "The Word" and they disagree and contradict each other. And there is that kind of liberal interpretation even in our own church on certain issues. And I'm prepared to do the same.

2. Yes, and whether it makes me happy is the litmus test of any scripture, policy or activity in my life -- and not in a purely selfish way. Happiness is the object and design of our existence....What makes me happy is that now that I realize my own forgiveness dynamic. It's bugged me for years that I have such a hard time forgiving.

I have a pair of friends who wronged me years ago. They won my trust back through repeated investments in our relationship that restored trust. And then I frankly forgave to the point I only just remembered it! And my lack of forgiveness went on for a long time --= until they started the investment-making. After the investment making it was easy to forgive them. Way easy.

In my case, this is the formula I have described above. I feel happy to understand how I think, and this book helped me, and I'm only in the first couple chapters..

https://www.amazon.com/Restoring-Broken ... way&sr=8-4

When there is no investment back into the relationship (in long-term, committed types of relationships) by the wrongdoer, it takes time, as well as separation from the wrong-doer for me to get past the angst.

I also want to add the concepts from the happiness literature. It says 50% of our happiness (and I will extrapolate to say, forgiveness) is genetic. 10% is due to circumstances, and 40% is up to us. It's what you do with your 40% that is your wiggle room. And I guess, from 5.5 years on the planet, 40% ain't enough for me to be the kind of forgiver Christ advocated. I've tried really hard and it never works. So, whether the doctrine be of God, or not God -- that litmus test tells me it's not of God. And if it is, it's not complete or doable by someone like me.

Mine is based on trust restored in committed relationships. Then forgiveness happens easily. In arms-length relationships, I think Christ's formula is feasible, even for me -- provided the depth of hurt isn't so significant my 40% can't handle it. In that case, severe distance, no-contact, removal of triggers of the memory, and the passage of time lead to forgiving. An apology helps, and of course, repeated apologies with investments in the relationship help me forgive easily....My history has shown that. THAT doctrine (if you can call it that) has proven itself through application.

SilentDawning wrote: ↑

10 May 2019, 18:22

The scriptures, are currently interpreted haven't worked for me in creating peace. I try and try to forgive and the bitterness remains. Only time has dulled certain injuries even when the perp hasn't been repentent or even apologized. I'm on a quest for happiness and I believe that should people close to me apologize repeatedly, and turn away from the injurious behavior, it leads to rather quick forgiveness and restoration of peace.

The topic of forgiveness and the restoration of trust are complicated issues of my faith. Imbedded in the process we're talking about are unhealthy emotions. Such as anger. Taken to the extreme, we can easily justify revenge. It happened to me once. I hope it never comes to me again.
I was angry at everything & everyone. There are still moments when I can put myself back in that frame of mind. It happened 30+ years ago.
My concept of faith, prayer, scriptures, Holy Ghost, blessings, etc have changed "bigly". God doesn't seem as personal anymore & I don't know
how to get that back.

I am careful not to characterize any particular statement from the past as Mormon doctrine. Nailing Jello to trees . . .

I also never quote Miracle of Forgiveness. Period. I loved Pres. Kimball, but he botched that book for average church members. Habitual, egregious, sinner members can gain from it; it is not appropriate for the large majority of members.

Curt Sunshine wrote: ↑

10 May 2019, 22:08

I am careful not to characterize any particular statement from the past as Mormon doctrine. Nailing Jello to trees . . .

Even with trying to take the perspective of someone with the ability to parse and see multiple meanings from the same passage, I can't see where I said anywhere that a past GA's book was doctrine Curt. I don't mind debate, but everyone has the right to be fairly represented, which doesn't seem to be happening in your statement above -- I said it was "unobjectionable" to me that SWK said a person should make their restitution bigger than the sore, while recognizing there were some downright destructive aspects of his book. There is a big difference between something a past GA said that SD find's unobjectionable, and doctrine.

I also never quote Miracle of Forgiveness. Period. I loved Pres. Kimball, but he botched that book for average church members. Habitual, egregious, sinner members can gain from it; it is not appropriate for the large majority of members.

Yes, I think the book is better off the shelves, but I also believe looking at each idea on its own merits. I never said what you claimed I said, and the book, in spite of its flaws, did have some good advice about restitution in that statement I paraphrased. The person who tries to make solid restitution not only finds favor with God, I think they also make one step further to restoring trust, depending on the situation.

I know first hand that people who try to make restitution make it a lot easier for people to forgive quickly. In that respect, restitution makers increase the sum total of happiness in the world. It's not bad advice at all.

SilentDawning wrote: ↑

10 May 2019, 19:30

I also want to add the concepts from the happiness literature. It says 50% of our happiness (and I will extrapolate to say, forgiveness) is genetic. 10% is due to circumstances, and 40% is up to us. It's what you do with your 40% that is your wiggle room.

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference.

Ideally, I believe that church would help us to reach for a better version of ourselves while providing a large dose of acceptance and mercy for where we currently are ... and then help us do the same for our brothers and sisters along the path.

I think that the general concept is that we repent, offer restitution, and ask forgiveness when we have hurt others.

Knowing that we can not expect everyone to act the penitent as we would do, and knowing that holding grudges can rancor our hearts and become wedges in our relationships, we are advised to forgive others or somehow move past the seeking for retribution, retaliation, or revenge.

Matt 5:23Therefore if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there before the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift

Matt 18:21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother who sins against me? Up to seven times?” 22Jesus answered, “I tell you, not just seven times, but seventy-seven times !

We are to treat others as we want to be treated and not how they may have treated us in the past. I do not believe that anyone should be a doormat. Personal boundaries are important. Also if someone has committed a crime against us it is appropriate that the legal process play out. You can forgive someone without removing the natural consequences for their actions. I am thinking especially in situations of sexual molestation or sexual assualt, you can forgive someone (eventually) and still report them to the authorities.