I Came Out To My Wife

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
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Shawn
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Re: I Came Out To My Wife

Post by Shawn » 11 Sep 2016, 09:37

Roy, thanks for that post. My wife is very scared and I feel bad about it. She worries about our social structure and other things. The biggest concern for her is our eternal family.

We just had an argument. She found out I listen to Mormonstories podcasts and said she believes John Dehlin engages in priestcraft, is an anti-Christ, and will be be indicted for possession of "kiddie porn" within ten years.

I said, "He's more honest than Joseph Smith was. I'm pretty sure he hasn't married other women and hidden it from his wife."

She then lamented about living with "a Korihor and Nehor in the house." :(

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mom3
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Re: I Came Out To My Wife

Post by mom3 » 11 Sep 2016, 14:34

Shawn - You have the control of her fear button. Use it. You don't need to make her more upset. I am not clear on your present objective in life but causing her to fear you as a Korihor will not help either one of you.

In a very bold suggestion - You need to figure out what is most important to you. Is your marriage? Are you the most important? What?

At this point you hold no credibility in her life. She trusts nothing you have to offer. You have just sentenced her dreams to death. Whether those dreams were valid or not, i.e. if there such thing as eternal families, etc. You just backed the car over her multiple times. You emptied the bank account and now over drawn.

I am not trying to be mean, but you can't have it both ways. You can't steal the world from someone and expect them to thank you for it.

I am sorry for your fight. I am sorry for the hurt you are both causing each other. From now until forever you hold all the keys to the relationships you have. Maybe you should try some of the other podcasts that were suggested on this thread if you need podcast time. You owe her that.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

Curt Sunshine
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Re: I Came Out To My Wife

Post by Curt Sunshine » 12 Sep 2016, 23:26

What mom3 said.

How much do you really love her - the real her - the person she is?
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Shawn
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Re: I Came Out To My Wife

Post by Shawn » 16 Sep 2016, 08:43

Let me add some context. A few days before the argument we had on Sunday, I had earbuds in so my wife asked me what I was listening to. It was a Mormonstories podcast called “What to do when your husband loses his LDS testimony.” I wanted to see how I could help my wife.

On Sunday I was sitting at the table doing some research. She asked about it and I tried to avoid a conversation but she persisted. Then we had the argument. I think John Dehlin is a nice guy, so I was bothered by what she said about him.

Anyway, she apologized to me twice for referring to me as a Korihor and Nehor. We made up.

I understand I have some control of her fear button. The church also has some control. I know I shouldn’t push her. We are doing okay.

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mom3
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Re: I Came Out To My Wife

Post by mom3 » 16 Sep 2016, 12:49

Shawn thanks for the context and update. It does help. I was happy to see you each took time to talk. OK is sometimes as good as it gets during this transition. Every human being inadvertently writes a life script. We don't even know we do it. Everyone of us is influenced. If we see someone wearing a cool hat it impacts us. We may even go so far as to get a hat just like it.

In my marriage (a decade of unequal yoking behind us), we both still have wishes and desires that we won't get fulfilled especially in a religious sense. He looks around and see's post-Mo couples (Not angry ex-mo's) out drinking at dinner. Wives wearing bikini's. Families boating on Sundays. And he yearns for that. Even if he doesn't say it, I see it in his face.

Since I am still connected to this religion, I like to remain as adherent as I feel comfortable. This puts strain between us. I also have holy envy for my evangelical neighbors who still all tromp out to their cars, with their families, and head off to church.

In my marriage our religious team-ship is done. Over. Thing of the past. Both of us hurt. I have no answers as to why we didn't end up with the same results. But my heart feels strongly about staying. I hope I will figure it out in time. I miss the ease of two people doing church/or no church together. And he misses the oneness, too.

It's taken us a decade to find personal peace with each others decisions. It took a lot of selection to see the good, the hopeful, the bright. We worked on finding what we did have in common. Sometimes that only meant a TV show. But it was a start. From there you add on. We aren't smooth sailing but we are much better than the early years.

If you need to talk more personally PM me. Good luck. Give her your best you. A friend, support, companion. If you need a John Dehlin podcast take a walk and listen outside. Ask her if she wants a podcast or online group. Maybe she needs help finding one. Don't push. Love.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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FaithfulSkeptic
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Re: I Came Out To My Wife

Post by FaithfulSkeptic » 16 Sep 2016, 13:19

mom3 wrote: It's taken us a decade to find personal peace with each others decisions. It took a lot of selection to see the good, the hopeful, the bright. We worked on finding what we did have in common. Sometimes that only meant a TV show. But it was a start. From there you add on. We aren't smooth sailing but we are much better than the early years.

If you need to talk more personally PM me. Good luck. Give her your best you. A friend, support, companion. If you need a John Dehlin podcast take a walk and listen outside. Ask her if she wants a podcast or online group. Maybe she needs help finding one. Don't push. Love.
Thanks Mom! I've got a long way to go in my journey with my wife, but what you've said above (especially what I bolded) is true for me too. Good stuff!
I know of no sign on the doors of our meetinghouses that says, “Your testimony must be this tall to enter.” Dieter F. Uchtdorf, October 2014

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: I Came Out To My Wife

Post by hawkgrrrl » 16 Sep 2016, 16:03

You gave her a 35 page document to read? I'm still shaking my head on that one. I'm surprised nobody mentioned it. I have a hard time getting family members to respond to a 4 word text most days.

As to the path forward, obviously you've gotten some good advice here. I'll be brief:
1 - if you want to stay married, let go of being right and trying to change her viewpoints and help her to do the same with you. Agree to disagree and settle in to your position as a non-believer. Be respectful of each other. Be agnostic enough about your own agnosticism to allow for the possibility that you aren't right about everything even if you have strong views about some of it. You don't have to convince anyone. It's your life. They are entitled to their own views and pursuit of happiness.
2 - I think there are still lots of great ways you can engage with your ward as a non-believer. Can you participate in service or Eagle projects? Would you help clean the building? Would you be willing to bring food in to people or help others move? Instead of focusing on the things you don't like or want, are there some positives to the community that you can contribute to? This will carve out a new space for you that also gives her comfort in the ward.
3 - Do you both love each other or does this change erode the basis for your relationship? If you still love and respect each other, then get off this topic and back to the topic of loving and respecting each other. That includes having boundaries.

Roy
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Re: I Came Out To My Wife

Post by Roy » 18 Sep 2016, 09:39

I really love what mom posted above.

I have a controlling MIL. I was very concerned when we first got married that DW would talk to MIL and it would be like they were ganging up on me. "Mom says that you should give up your video game collection and grow up now that you are married with a baby on the way." I envisioned a scenario where I could appeal to my own parents for support. "My mom says that having a little relaxation time is fine in moderation."

We made an agreement that our disagreements would stay between us. Whatever we decided to do in our marriage it would be an internal decision.

I wonder if a little of that might not be going on here. Why defend John Dehlin? He is no "anti-Christ" but he is also not one of the most important people in your marriage. I am sure that John would not be offended if you let your wife besmirch his reputation without coming to his defense. John is right about some things. John is also wrong about some things. When you defended him by going after JS it made me wonder if you were retaliating - she went after an authority figure for you so you went after an authority figure for her.

I am so glad that she apologized and you made up. It might also be a good idea to apologize about the JS comment - not because you owe one the JS but because it was a hurtful thing for your wife to hear and you said it in anger/defensiveness.

Just my thoughts. I can only view your marriage through the lens of my own marriage.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

amateurparent
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Re: I Came Out To My Wife

Post by amateurparent » 18 Sep 2016, 13:47

Shaun:

I have been thinking about the document that you compiled. What was your goal for putting such a document together?

The only reason I could see for putting together a personal CES letter is if you were trying to convince her to leave. That would serve your needs -- but not hers.

Often one spouse is happy going to church. The other is not. Can both be happy with that difference? I think it is important to value a spouse enough to be willing to let them make their own choices about religion. Anything else becomes manipulation and a fight for dominance in the relationship. Everyone loses.
I have no advance degrees in parenting. No national credentials. I am an amateur parent. I read, study, and learn all I can to be the best parent possible. Every time I think I have reached expert status with one child for one stage in their life, something changes and I am back to amateur status again. Now when I really mess up, I just apologize to my child, and explain that I am indeed an amateur .. I'm still learning how to do this right.

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Shawn
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Re: I Came Out To My Wife

Post by Shawn » 21 Sep 2016, 17:59

Yeah, I emailed my wife a 25 page document. I don't blame you for shaking your head, hawkgrrrl. I had tried several times to explain my doubts to her and she just thought I was taking things out of context and being duped by anti-Mormons. That's why I wrote up the document with a bunch of quotes from reliable, church-friendly sources. It didn't work. She read through it quickly and then summarily discounted it.

Roy, I defended John Dehlin and brought up Joseph Smith because I thought it was crazy for my wife to say those things about John while praising Joseph. It reminded me of this:
Behold, the Lamanites [John Dehlin] your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you [Joseph Smith]; for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our father—that they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should have none, and there should not be whoredoms committed among them....

Behold, their husbands love their wives, and their wives love their husbands; and their husbands and their wives love their children; and their unbelief and their hatred towards you is because of the iniquity of their fathers; wherefore, how much better are you than they, in the sight of your great Creator? (Jacob 3:5,7)
Anyway, you are right. I am not going to apologize, but I going to avoid retaliating in the future.

AP, I confess that I really am trying to convince her to leave. It's the right thing to do. I am convinced of that. I also "think it is important to value a spouse enough to be willing to let them make their own choices about religion." My wife is not letting me do that. She handles our finances and continues to pay tithing on my income after I have asked her a few times not to. Why does she do that? I believe it is because the church is holding her family hostage - she believes that she will lose me and the kids forever if we don't give money to the church. Here's some other reasons why I want to lead her out of the church with me:

-We are paying 10% of our income to a church that has gobs of money and won't tell us how it's spent (of course, I know some of it is spent on super fancy doorknobs and chandeliers). We still sometimes use credit cards to pay bills.

-I don't want my 14-year-old boy to feel like crap for masturbating. He recently let my wife and I know that he's been doing that. I said, "Well, don't feel bad about it. I'm not worried about it." My wife also told him to not feel bad, but also told him to go see the bishop. I think it's getting to him.

-I don't want any of my kids to waste their time and our money on a mission.

-Garments.

-I WANT TO SEE MY KIDS GET MARRIED.

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