"You should have known"

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
Old-Timer
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Re: "You should have known"

Post by Old-Timer » 08 Aug 2015, 09:54

The thing is, Paulista, there is nothing objectively inaccurate in that video when it comes to the translation process. According to multiple accounts, Joseph might have spent some of his time "translating" in that way. We don't have anything that says he always used the seer stone or that he always worked in any one way, especially when there was a drawn curtain between him and the scribe, which was the bulk of the time.

As we have said in other threads, when you produce a very short summary history of anything, you tend to pick either the most controversial parts or the least controversial parts - depending totally on the overall point or impression you want to make. It happens all the time, and it would be impossible to tell a lengthy story and not do it.

We should be careful in our concern about not having known about this to make the same mistake on the end of the spectrum and deny aspects that did, probably did or might have occurred - or to over criticize things like a very short summary of a very long story.

Having said that, I am not aware of any video portraying the use of the seer stone. That is a shame - although it might be impossible to portray accurately, since I'm sure we have a god description from Joseph or anyone else about the actual mechanics of that process. We know enough about the historical use of seer stones to come close and perhaps be accurate, but even then purists would probably criticize that portrayal, as well.

I would love to see a video now that we have this essay that portrays the process.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Paulista
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Re: "You should have known"

Post by Paulista » 08 Aug 2015, 10:05

Old-Timer wrote:The thing is, Paulista, there is nothing objectively inaccurate in that video when it comes to the translation process.
In the interest of full disclosure, this (honesty/integrity) is one of my key issues with the Church. In my mind there is a big difference between being honest and "nothing objectively inaccurate".
Lying is intentionally deceiving others. Bearing false witness is one form of lying. The Lord gave this commandment to the children of Israel: “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour” (Exodus 20:16). Jesus also taught this when He was on earth (see Matthew 19:18). There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.
https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-princ ... y?lang=eng

amateurparent
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Re: "You should have known"

Post by amateurparent » 08 Aug 2015, 11:13

Boa Tarde Paulista!
Paulista wrote "

In the interest of full disclosure, this (honesty/integrity) is one of my key issues with the Church. In my mind there is a big difference between being honest and "nothing objectively inaccurate".
You nailed it.

Growing up, I was encouraged to stick with the information provided by the church. I was told other sources couldn't be trusted to tell the truth. I followed those suggestions.

The more I read and the more I study, the more twisted the bigger picture is.
I have no advance degrees in parenting. No national credentials. I am an amateur parent. I read, study, and learn all I can to be the best parent possible. Every time I think I have reached expert status with one child for one stage in their life, something changes and I am back to amateur status again. Now when I really mess up, I just apologize to my child, and explain that I am indeed an amateur .. I'm still learning how to do this right.

NonTraditionalMom
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Re: "You should have known"

Post by NonTraditionalMom » 08 Aug 2015, 11:36

Thank you for understanding and acknowledging my concerns. I do hope that my original post didn't come off as attacking in any way. I felt like this was the safest place to express my thoughts, and I truly appreciate your insights. We often talk about the MBTI, and I think this is where my very high NF tendencies show the most. It's all about feelings for me. :?

For me, the general attitudes of certain groups felt something like this:

Anti (or commenters on the SL Trib article): "See! We told you! Your church is a fraud! You didn't know? Well, you've been brainwashed/you're an idiot."

Progressive Mormons: "Yay! Transparency! You didn't know? Well, you haven't been thinking critically/doing your research."

TBM: "See, we're not hiding anything. You didn't know? Well, we did tell you. It's not our fault if you didn't read that article in the Ensign that we printed before you were born. And if you're still questioning, that's because you lack faith."

I realize, of course, that there not as many people who actually think exactly this way as it sometimes seems. I guess that's why I wanted to bring it up-- because I am one of those people who falls outside any of those trains of thought. What I need to hear right now is something like, "You didn't know? I'm sorry. It's confusing, isn't it? It's okay to ask about it, and it's okay to doubt. There is nothing wrong with you." And I do hear that message from this site, and I appreciate it. Thanks.

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mom3
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Re: "You should have known"

Post by mom3 » 08 Aug 2015, 12:00

There are a thousand things I want to say, some of them are just repeats of what others have said on this thread, some of it would just be me screaming one more time as one more person experiences the pain you are going through. I am a mender by nature. Every personality test, Strength discovery test and so on has a version of my mending desires in it. Today as I read your post I wanted to be sick. Not because of what you wrote, but because you had to write it.

I didn't know about the seer stone, Joseph's polygamy, Mountain Meadows Massacre, Emma carrying the bible translation stuck in her skirts as she hiked in the snow for miles, and so on and so on. Some of it hits hard, some rolls off my back. That doesn't make me better than anyone it's just my personality. What doesn't roll off my back is the handling of the stuff, the blowing off of people "who should have known", the dismissive-ness, the hurt and the damage. That above all ticks me off. There are marriages, families, members and non-members whose lives, harmony, joy, peace are all wrapped up in the results and I am not pleased with the product out-lay.

So - I don't think you should have known, I also don't think you should be blamed, and I do think someone needs to take some serious responsibility for this. Yes. No one is perfect and I don't think the team at the top caused the pain, but they represent the brand, and owe the brand that responsibility. IMHO.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

Old-Timer
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Re: "You should have known"

Post by Old-Timer » 08 Aug 2015, 13:52

Paulista, I hope my comment didn't seem to dismiss your concern. I didn't mean to imply that at all.

I have complete sympathy for those who didn't know something - and I have zero agreement with anyone who says everyone should have known about everything. I hope that is clear to everyone from my first comment - and many others over the years. I apologize if that wasn't clear in my second comment.

Your post doesn't come across as attacking in any way, and it is completely fine for this forum.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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On Own Now
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Re: "You should have known"

Post by On Own Now » 08 Aug 2015, 16:05

NTM,

First, I'll reiterate what others have said: most of us have been through or are currently going through something similar. Although there were many things I did know, I can distinctly remember the surprise and sort of disappointment I felt when I learned that the papyri from which sprang the BofA had not actually been destroyed in a fire, but that they are extant and that they don't match JS's translation in any way. Probably everyone here has that feeling of "I didn't know" about something. There are several others for me, but the BofA was the first one; that experience was decades ago, but still leaves a bitter aftertaste.

One thing that I think is very important in our effort (sometimes struggle) to StayLDS is to get to a place where we just don't give a rat's a## what other people have to say about us. I am trying to live my life as sincerely and uprightly as I know how. If someone else thinks I don't pray enough, don't fast enough, don't exercise faith enough, or don't <whatever> enough, it has no relevance, because they don't know me or my situation. I try very hard to treat them the way I hope they treat me, but if I don't receive in kind, it doesn't really alter my approach; I will continue to strive internally to live my life in a way that is representative of my values.

If you are satisfied that your reason for not knowing about the seerstone is not due to any defect on your part, then don't let what other people have to say about it affect your perception of yourself. Some of this stuff is out there to some degree or another, but it's not like it was ever included in a Church lesson manual for SS, PM, RS or YM/YW. Maybe some apologetic discussion at the CES level, but as a matter of Sunday services, the Church has never said anything about these things.

For me, it's easy to be excited about the new openness of the Church. That's because from my perspective, I had my faith crisis long ago and have been frustrated that the Church has (previously) held this information close to the vest. Now that the Church is being more open, it helps alleviate that concern. But I recognize that for you, the experience is different. The new facts being put out by the Church are contributing to your faith crisis and there is no way around it, faith crisis is a terrible experience. I have often explained that I didn't go looking for it, it hit me like a sucker punch to the gut.
- - -
“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.” ― Carl Jung
- - -
"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." ― Romans 14:13
- - -

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christx83
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Re: "You should have known"

Post by christx83 » 08 Aug 2015, 16:34

You are expressing my same experiences and frustrations, and as a result, I can no longer trust the church and the leadership at the top. Initially, I was in a panic because it all seemed like a lie. Even now, the Ensign article about the seer stone is not trustworthy to me. Even after talking about the seer stone and what it was used for, the article includes only the artwork that we've grown up with...the artwork that is incorrect. On top of that, article throws the artists under the bus.
I could perhaps start trusting the church again if they would just be honest and stop spinning the stories and stop telling us that we should have known.
I feel so heartbroken for the thousands of faithful members (including myself) that have done everything asked of us but have been completely blindsided by the church essays and the coming forth of the seer stone. It's a lot to handle...the feelings of betrayal and the feeling of being played like a fool.
I hope that all of us can find peace and comfort from the One that we can always trust, no matter whether we choose to stay, or temporarily step back, or ultimately leave. I'm stepping back for now, and it has taken almost a year for me to make that decision. I'm still keeping in touch with my beloved ward members by continuing to visit teach and be visited. I need time to heal and to think and to focus on my relationship with God. I have to put the church on the shelf at least for now.
It helps a lot to know that you're not alone, and you're not crazy. :-) Best wishes to you as you begin to sort things out. Take your time.

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Grudunza
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Re: "You should have known"

Post by Grudunza » 08 Aug 2015, 17:55

Old-Timer wrote:We don't have anything that says he always used the seer stone or that he always worked in any one way, especially when there was a drawn curtain between him and the scribe, which was the bulk of the time.
Actually, the current research of the relevant witnesses concludes that only the seer stone was used for the entire BoM. The Nephite Interpreters were used for the 116 pages but abandoned thereafter. I can look up the references for that later, but I've heard that stated now more than once by prominent BoM scholars.
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Ann
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Re: "You should have known"

Post by Ann » 09 Aug 2015, 00:25

christx83 wrote:It helps a lot to know that you're not alone, and you're not crazy. :-)
Since people don't always get around to a formal introduction, just want to say hello and welcome now. :wave: Reading and sharing here has helped me so much, and I hope the same for you.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

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