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Boise Rescue

Posted: 15 Jun 2015, 12:11
by DBMormon
Very frustrated today and sad. I no longer feel wanted.

two thoughts from this audio. They have tried to work with doubters and fed up. We are no longer welcome. Either be quiet or leave

*** Oaks stated something like
"The Key Question in determining who is on the Lord's side is how one feels about the church's prophetic leadership and these feelings determine whether one is in apostasy or not."
Oaks says
"Questions lead to faith and revelation whereas doubts lead to disobedience."
Also they have not seen Christ (this quote below is verbatim)

***Elder Oaks seems to have just acknowledged that the apostles have not seen Christ.
He quotes D&C 107:23 - "The twelve traveling councilors are called to be the Twelve Apostles, or special witnesses of the name of Christ in all the world" and then says "This is not to witness of a personal manifestation. To witness of the name is to witness of the plan, the work, or mission such as the atonement and the authority or priesthood of the Lord Jesus Christ, which an apostle who holds the keys is uniquely responsible to do. Of course apostles are also witnesses of Christ just like all members of the church who have the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Very saddened by all of this... feel I am no longer wanted

Re: Boise Rescue

Posted: 15 Jun 2015, 12:39
by DarkJedi
I'll try to weep with those who weep, Bill. I'm sorry you are feeling this way. I have started to listen to the recording of the Boise rescue, but I am not even halfway through yet. From what I have heard, it is not what I hoped it would be. It is hard to take snippets or sound bites and get the big picture, but I do think they are trying to address the more faithful questioners (like those here, in general) as opposed to the apostates, and I think they are trying to delineate which are which. I don't think the criteria they are using (JS, BoM, current leadership) can truly and adequately do that, and that may be the fault in the whole thing. I also think their view is on the black and white side, but I should have expected that.

Ohio is different from the Corridor, Bill. I really do think the members of the church outside the Corridor are different from the members inside, and that is at least in part due to the immersion of the culture. Here it's easier to shake off some of the stuff because it's not in our faces every minute of every day. I think we're better off, frankly, and I think someone is better off having a faith crisis and/or transition here than there.

I stay because the church teaches the gospel of Jesus Christ. I realize other churches do that too, some much better than we do. Nevertheless, I can keep my focus there and ignore the other stuff - all anyone ever needs to know is that I believe in Christ and that I believe Christ (and that may well be the crux of what I tell those whom I pm'ed you about). I am firm in my belief that God will not judge us on what we believe about JS, the BoM, or TSM (or SWK, ETB, HWH, or GBH). I think if God were really concerned about them there would be a more direct question in the TR interview. I believe Pres. Uchtdorf is right:
here you will find a people who yearn to know and draw closer to their Savior by serving God and fellowmen, just like you
Hang in there, my friend, Sunday will come.

Re: Boise Rescue

Posted: 15 Jun 2015, 14:05
by startpoor
I listened to a bit of the audio too. Shocks all around. First shock came when they announced what the closing song would be. "Whose on the Lords side?" Really??? So sanctimonious for this type of "outreach." Next came when DHO said what you quoted above. Why draw the lines like that? Just let the wheat and Tares grow up together to maturity, then let jesus do the separating. Next one came during Jensens talk. I was like, is he seriously going to insult everyone's intelligence by bolstering the bofm on claims that JS was sooo unlearned and "you try writing a book in 90days." I mean c'mon! You're the church asst historian! You should have more insight than that.
But unlike you, I wasn't hurt by it all. Maybe because I'm on the less believing end of the spectrum than you. Don't know. But I am really sorry you feel this way, and you certainly have good reason to. You're efforts to help the church are awesome imo. My TBM dad sometimes tells me "the church needs people like you." It gives me strength to keep going. I am recently learning just how many members in my ward are struggling with faith issues related to historicity or social issues. It's a lot! Every week now the subject is broached in one way or another. So yes, the church really does need people like you. Oaks doesn't speak for the Lord, and on some level, doesn't even speak for the church. This is not his church, but the Lords, and everyone who meets together in his name. I wish you luck as you work this out.

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Re: Boise Rescue

Posted: 15 Jun 2015, 14:08
by mom3
Just a guess here, but the back to back events of Holland in Europe and Oaks & Co. in Boise point to a bit of panic. Both spoke in areas that had high profile events - Snuffer in Boise, Mattson in Europe. To me these are clear indicators of purpose, especially when Jeffrey Holland makes the Mattson family connection with a photo and a speaker.

I feel for the church leadership most of all right now. The broadside hit that information caused was not on the table in their plans. Trying to contain the tsunami has been less successful. I am willing to expect more of it. Not because it's right, but because it is the human nature of panic. I've lived through natural disasters and after the event - months, even years, of discussions, analyzing, theorizing comes about. More warnings are posted, more drills are practiced, etc. Then time ebbs away, nothing big happens during year 3 or 4, everyone relaxes.

We are in the wake of upheaval. The first round of plans didn't go so well, so now the next round sets out, and so on. How we respond may be the best key. Let them blow steam, let the conversation settle, and Love the Heck out of the other guys. The 'ites on the other side need us just as much, they just don't know it yet.

You are in the belt way now, you will feel it, plus you have to develop or regain street cred. Christ is still the best anchor. He is the calm in the storm, whether we pronounce him or just treat others like he wants us to treat them.

Thanks for sharing your concern. It's valid. We will keep an eye and heart out, for all families involved. We need to find a way to spread love. Because,
God hath not given us the spirit of fear - but of power, love and a sound mind.

Re: Boise Rescue

Posted: 15 Jun 2015, 14:10
by mom3
Startpoor - Wasn't it Richard Turley not Marlin Jensen that spoke.

Lastly, this method was tried early on during the Mattson process, it didn't help much.

Re: Boise Rescue

Posted: 15 Jun 2015, 14:43
by Roy
where could I find a summary about this stuff? I am out of the loop.

Re: Boise Rescue

Posted: 15 Jun 2015, 15:16
by LookingHard
I looked up "Boise Rescue" and first I was sent to a homeless shelter in Boise :-)

It seems to me either the brethren are so black and white stage 3-er's that they really can't understand how to talk to those that are doubting, or they do understand and don't have a response and they are more trying to stop the hemorrhaging than truly help those that are honestly questioning. It did zilch for me and my position right now.

I am sorry it hurts you. I worry about you being in Utah. I think that can make it harder to stay in, but with some questions/doubts. It seems there is more pressure and the pressure either forces you out or forces you to hold in all of your doubts.

I hope you find peace. I appreciate very much what you have done for me. Twice when I was going to throw in the towel you helped me. Once from your blog and once when we chatted on the phone. No matter what happens to either of us, I truly appreciate your efforts. Other than this site I have not found a place more helpful than your podcast.

Boise Rescue

Posted: 15 Jun 2015, 16:20
by startpoor
Mom3 you're probably right. I get those two confused all the time. That's a good insight about the Boise/snuffer connection. I didn't know that was where it went down. I thought it was in Utah. If that's the case, the statement was probably directed to that crowd, who believe the leaders of the LDS church are in apostasy. But a blanket statement like that affects all who hear it, whether faithful like Bill, or the people for whom it may have been intended. Still, though, if I have to choose lines, I'll take the one drawn at: "believe what you want, just don't try and create followers." And if someone does become a snufferite, I have no problem with the church drawing a line for them. That's clear cut organizational apostasy. But the mantra of "who's on the lords side?" Shows serious hubris when applied to those who follow the brethren. It leaves out every other religion, not just mormon apostates.

[edited to change all autocorrections from sniffer back to snuffer]

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Re: Boise Rescue

Posted: 15 Jun 2015, 17:04
by mom3
I would love to know who selected the hymn? The GA's, the chorister, the local leadership. Yes it sends a certain message and I am choosing the "Lord's side" part of it. I hear and feel Oaks words, I really can see the idea of the direction they are working from - but I also try carefully to look around at the other nuanced people that the church is widely aware of - and yet no actions are taken towards them.

On the short list are the following, Carol Lynn Pearson, Mitch Maynes, Robert or Bob Rees, The Givens, BCC team, Kristine Haglund - Dialogue Editor, Joanna Brooks, Dan Wotherspoon, Michael Barker, Wheat & Tares bloggers, Times & Seasons bloggers - this is a speedy go over. So far they still maintain their membership, espouse a nuanced view, engage in conversation and remain in the faithful category or at the least - not an enemy category.

I listened to Claudia Bushman encourage women to have baby blessings in their homes, she clearly stated not to use the word Priesthood blessing, but gather the friends, hold the baby, bless it and have refreshments. It's nuanced, it would curl some leaders hair and toes, but no one is shutting down Claudia Bushman.

As I see it, there is still room for navigation, the battle (and it is a battle) is far from over. I believe "there is hope smiling brightly before us" if we look carefully, choose wisely and use wisdom.

I remember hoping the essays would be this miraculous cure all to the problem, I was so hurt when it didn't become such, I allowed myself to feel that hurt, to rage at it, acknowledge it, shake my fist at God about it - as I did so other lights and ideas came to me. Perhaps thats the solution here. Own the anger it gives you, own the fear, make it yours, rage in private with God - and then see where it takes you. Think of our Black brothers and sisters and the years they endured. Think of the "faithful" who held out hope, and nudged the process for the ban to be changed. Maybe our job is like theirs and we have to create the response that will do our part to keep the entire ship sailing.

Re: Boise Rescue

Posted: 15 Jun 2015, 17:31
by Roy
It seems that boise has been somewhat of a hotbed of unrest lately. second hand reports suggest some have even banded together and started their own church. It also seems to be the right wing individuals that are causing the problem there. Saying that the church is in apostacy and that church leaders no longer reveal anything from God.

That adds some understanding to some of what is being said about avoiding false prophets and keeping faith in church leadership.