Boise Rescue

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
Paulista
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Joined: 08 Mar 2015, 18:46

Re: Boise Rescue

Post by Paulista » 18 Jun 2015, 23:14

Ray DeGraw wrote:Yes, the brother of Jared story is used by some to say it can be that way for everyone. I think that is nonsense. I believe it is just as bad an over-application as saying everyone can get an answer to prayer through a burning in the bosom because that's how Oliver got his.
I think there is a difference between the way people receive answers and what appears to be a principle regarding faith.

"And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger."

I think the context matters. But for people that go down the Denver road it would be pretty easy to use this as a piece of their puzzle.

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nibbler
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Re: Boise Rescue

Post by nibbler » 19 Jun 2015, 04:14

university wrote:I don't understand what I guess this forum calls the "conservative" wing of church rebellion. It is quite peculiar to me. From my perspective, it feels like the '"conservative" wing applies rigorous scrutiny to current leadership, but if the same level of scrutiny was applied to the early leaders of the Church, and even the Book of Mormon itself, the foundation of church origins wouldn't stand up to it, either.
I think it reflects the same spirit that existed at the time the church was founded. People have this desire to return to the primitive church because they view it as being more pure. In this case the "primitive" church refers to the church that was restored in 1830. It might require a staunch belief in the restoration coupled with rosy retrospection or romanticizing of the past. Still I think it's no different than the restoration movement of JS's day, it's just that the target is the early LDS church rather than the NT church but for many those two things are one and the same.

I think I get where they are coming from, if god can't change then how could revealed church policy/doctrine? They may feel they have a spiritual witness of a complete restoration of all things under JS, anything else would be a departure from that restored perfection.
Cure sometimes, treat often, comfort always.
— Hippocrates

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DevilsAdvocate
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Re: Boise Rescue

Post by DevilsAdvocate » 19 Jun 2015, 07:29

university wrote:...I don't understand what I guess this forum calls the "conservative" wing of church rebellion. It is quite peculiar to me. From my perspective, it feels like the '"conservative" wing applies rigorous scrutiny to current leadership, but if the same level of scrutiny was applied to the early leaders of the Church, and even the Book of Mormon itself, the foundation of church origins wouldn't stand up to it, either...But I guess that's how we all are. We sort what we analyze and critique based off our paradigms and convictions.
I think some of them are classic examples of social conservatives politically mostly because of the judgmental comments about gays some of them have made and hearing others call them conservatives as if that's how they have identified themselves. In other words, they sound like the Church's preferred target demographic (both politically and for believing in the restoration story) other than some of these dissenters don't want to defer to the current leaders' claimed authority for whatever reasons.

The way I see it American conservatives typically value freedom and dislike perceived oppression similar to liberals so to some extent questioning the current leaders' authority simply looks like another reason to dismiss what they say after the fact that they already feel like the leaders have beome overbearing tyrants compared to previous religious leaders like Jesus, Paul, or Joseph Smith (if you cherry pick some of his quotes such as, "I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves."). To me some of their comments basically sounded like, "I can read and understand the scriptures well enough myself; I don't need these guys to tell me what to believe and do."
Last edited by DevilsAdvocate on 20 Jun 2015, 09:19, edited 5 times in total.
"Truth is what works." - William James

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DevilsAdvocate
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Re: Boise Rescue

Post by DevilsAdvocate » 19 Jun 2015, 07:34

Ray DeGraw wrote:DA, as bluntly as I can say this, you can have your suppositions; I will keep my lengthy research. Our activity rates are higher now, as an aggregate percentage, then they were in the past, generally speaking.
Good for you; but if others want to do similar research can they simply look up these activity rates somewhere by year the same way they can for total membership numbers, converts, etc. to compare? As far as I can tell the average attendance is not something the Church has been publicly reporting recently. It wouldn't surprise me if the average attendance was lower back when people had to walk through the snow or ride a horse and buggy to church but that wouldn't necessarily be related to belief.

Personally I would mostly like to compare the average attendance for the mid-nineties up until now because I think the internet really has been a game-changer for the Church in more ways than one (exposing uncorrelated information, validating that members are not alone in their doubts/disbelief, porn, etc.). Why would Marlin Jensen call this possibly the biggest period of "apostasy" since Kirtland if there is nothing to this idea? I realize that this is sort of off-topic but this talk about the Church supposedly doing as well as ever was originally spurred on by a stake president calling the number of people leaving the Church "epidemic." Even if that is an overly dramatic way to describe the situation I can see how it would feel like an epidemic to local leaders if they see entire families that have been active for years leaving the Church, people asking to be released from their callings mostly because they don't believe in the Church, etc.
"Truth is what works." - William James

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DarkJedi
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Re: Boise Rescue

Post by DarkJedi » 19 Jun 2015, 08:06

What do you observe in your own ward, DA? While not all wards are the same, they do seem to be microcosms of the trends of the larger church, and stakes are much more so like indicators. I have been in my current ward since 1989, and while our ward is much smaller now than it was then (because of a major industry shutting its doors), the rate of activity is still about the same - about 35% of the members are active (about 15% are full tithe payers). Back in the 90s I only could tell this because leadership positions gave me access to the records and reports. However, with the advent of the LDS Tools app, anyone who can count and so some basic math can get a pretty good estimation of their own ward's activity rate (# of people there on Sunday divided by # of people in the directory). My understanding is that 35% is about average for areas outside the Corridor where the rate is closer to 45-50%. My son is currently serving a mission in Chile where they do mostly reactivation work. He tells me ward roles there have around 1000 members on them while SM attendance in most ward is usually less than 100 (he attributes this to "doorstep conversion" and other uncouth practices of the 80s and early 90s). Another factor to consider is are those who are leaving greater in number than those who are coming into the church (either by conversion or baptism)?
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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DBMormon
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Re: Boise Rescue

Post by DBMormon » 19 Jun 2015, 23:06

GBSmith wrote:I listened to the podcast and then checked out the link to the man and his wife that were excommunicated and I don't think we have anything to worry about. The typical StayLDS type faith crisis, as I experienced, has nothing to do with what DHO was preaching about. It sounds like there's a Denver Snuffer problem there and the brethren are trying to nip it in the bud. Doubt in the sense of polygamy, JS and accounts of the first vision, etc. doesn't seem to be the issue but it's if TSM is really a prophet why doesn't he prophesy something. There's a big difference between wondering if it's really true and "God revealed to me it isn't and I'm going to do something about it". In summary I'd say to DBMormon that you've nothing to concern yourself with.
I hope!!!

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DevilsAdvocate
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Re: Boise Rescue

Post by DevilsAdvocate » 20 Jun 2015, 09:27

DarkJedi wrote:What do you observe in your own ward, DA? While not all wards are the same, they do seem to be microcosms of the trends of the larger church, and stakes are much more so like indicators. I have been in my current ward since 1989, and while our ward is much smaller now than it was then (because of a major industry shutting its doors), the rate of activity is still about the same - about 35% of the members are active (about 15% are full tithe payers). Back in the 90s I only could tell this because leadership positions gave me access to the records and reports...My understanding is that 35% is about average for areas outside the Corridor where the rate is closer to 45-50%. My son is currently serving a mission in Chile where they do mostly reactivation work. He tells me ward roles there have around 1000 members on them while SM attendance in most ward is usually less than 100 (he attributes this to "doorstep conversion" and other uncouth practices of the 80s and early 90s). Another factor to consider is are those who are leaving greater in number than those who are coming into the church (either by conversion or baptism)?
Lately I mostly only attend church anymore for baby blessings and missionary farewells. Also, I moved into this neighborhood and haven't been here that many years so I don't know what it was like before. I have heard about some families that don't go to church anymore supposedly because they were offended, drink, etc. but it wouldn't surprise me at all if the real reason was that some of them read some of the typical stuff on the internet and don't believe in the Church anymore. Sometimes people move without ever transferring their records to their new ward and the Church basically loses track of them. What I have noticed in all the different wards I have visited in recent years including my own home ward that I grew up in is that it seems like there used to be a lot more children, youth, and married couples that were 20-45 years old just 20 years ago but now it seems like the wards have become older on average.

There may still be a few families with a large number of children but not as many younger families as I remember and there used to be many missionaries from the same ward out at the same time but now there will typically be one or two and the rest of the young adults eventually move away and I usually don't hear if they are still active in the Church or not after that. Personally I don't believe that the Church is doing as well as ever for a second not just because of the impact of the internet on business as usual for the Church but also because it seems like the larger families on average in past decades made it much easier for the Church to be able to get away with losing large numbers of members to inactivity and still be able count on guaranteed growth than what they can afford to plan on anymore.
"Truth is what works." - William James

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