Boise Rescue

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
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nibbler
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Re: Boise Rescue

Post by nibbler » 18 Jun 2015, 05:00

I think we hear "Boise Rescue" and assume it had the same goals as the Swedish Rescue. I believe the two events were aimed at rescuing two very different types of people.

Swedish Rescue - Many leaders experienced a faith crisis. The worry was likely that people would lose faith in the church and its doctrines.

Boise Rescue - A few people took issue with current church leaders making claims to exclusive authority. The worry was likely that people would continue to have faith in most church doctrines but lose faith in current leadership.

Two very different crowds. The Swedish Rescue probably addresses concerns that people who land at StayLDS might share. I don't think we'd end up getting much out of the Boise Rescue. I believe the intent of the Boise Rescue was to minister to people somewhere on the orthodox spectrum to get them to acknowledge one set of leaders over another, things that don't necessarily speak to the needs of the unorthodox member.

I view the Boise Rescue as the modern day equivalent of D&C sections 28 and 43.

D&C 28 - Hiram Page used a stone to receive revelations for the church, likely the same method he had seen Joseph Smith use. This section is essentially a "Fayette Rescue"
But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses. And thou shalt be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, even as Aaron, to declare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and authority unto the church.
Change a few names and you've got the Boise Rescue. Denver Snuffer has seen Jesus, similar to the way Joseph Smith was called to lead, he can step into the role of Hiram Page.

D&C 43 - "Mrs. Hubble," I can't find a first name. Of Mrs. Hubble:
History of the Church, 1:154n, John Whitmer wrote:She professed to be a prophetess of the Lord, and professed to have many revelations, and knew the Book of Mormon was true, and that she should become a teacher in the church of Christ. She appeared to be very sanctimonious and deceived some who were not able to detect her in her hypocrisy; others, however, had the spirit of discernment and her follies and abominations were manifest.
She was a believer, she knew the BoM to be true. I'll spare you lengthy quotes from section 43, but it reads a lot like the Boise Rescue.

What we have here is prophets of the church doing what prophets of the church have done. This is how stage 3 organizations teach no man can serve two masters. It doesn't minister to me, but I don't believe that was their goal.
Cure sometimes, treat often, comfort always.
— Hippocrates

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DevilsAdvocate
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Re: Boise Rescue

Post by DevilsAdvocate » 18 Jun 2015, 07:03

GBSmith wrote:
Sheldon wrote:An excellent write up of the meeting is found here by Anonymous Bishop
I guess I have to disagree. The red flag for me is trying to get an apostle to say whether or not he's seen the Savior. It's a gotcha question that I see coming from someone who already sees themselves as more right, righteous, and religious. The part about whether or not BY had or just took authority is another example of picking something from history to invalidate something today...The reality here is that when people start giving voice to their concerns they've usually already divided it up into an us vs them and there's no reasoning or persuasion that's going to work. At this point prevention is likely the only treatment. (As a disaffected under the radar heathen, it feels really weird to be writing this. Loyalty I guess.)
To me the comments for this article were interesting because it sounds like it is not just liberals and hardcore skeptics that aren't buying into the whole, "Follow the prophet (Thomas S. Monson)" mantra; now we have conservatives that already believe in the LDS scriptures and restoration story that don't believe the current Church Presidency and apostles have any special authority or knowledge from God. The expectation that some of them have that Church leaders should theoretically see Jesus seems like a bit much to me but to some extent I think the Church leaders have basically set themselves up for this by pretending to be more than it looks like they ever really have been based on the evidence we see and allowing many members to believe this kind of thing (I.E. that they are meeting with Jesus in the temple but it's supposedly too sacred to talk about) for years. Then someone like the Denver Snuffer comes along that claims he saw Jesus and isn't afraid to talk about it and, to some people at least, it makes the current Church leaders' typical platitudes sound relatively weak by comparison.
"Truth is what works." - William James

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LookingHard
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Re: Boise Rescue

Post by LookingHard » 18 Jun 2015, 08:04

DevilsAdvocate wrote:Then someone like the Denver Snuffer comes along that claims he saw Jesus and isn't afraid to talk about it and, to some people at least, it makes the current Church leaders' typical platitudes sound relatively weak by comparison.
I had not thought about it that way. Interesting. I do know that I reached a point in my crisis where I did as, "what have been revelations lately?" The last one considered a revelation was blacks and the priesthood, but even that I look now as a change in policy - which didn't need to be revelation other than to slap some prejudice out of a few folks. TPotF seems to smell more like a prettied up legal document. Even the essays are not even to be from the top 15 guys, but I am sure they know of them.

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Holy Cow
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Re: Boise Rescue

Post by Holy Cow » 18 Jun 2015, 08:19

Wow! This whole conversation has been an interesting one to me. I've been a member my whole life, and I've never heard anybody say that the apostles have seen Jesus. Do they really claim to have seen Christ, or is this one of those cultural legend things that people just perpetuate? :think:
I hadn't heard of Denver Snuffer, the Boise Rescue, the Swedish Rescue... I feel very out of the loop. Where do you guys hear about all this stuff?
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LookingHard
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Re: Boise Rescue

Post by LookingHard » 18 Jun 2015, 08:42

Holy Cow wrote:Wow! This whole conversation has been an interesting one to me. I've been a member my whole life, and I've never heard anybody say that the apostles have seen Jesus. Do they really claim to have seen Christ, or is this one of those cultural legend things that people just perpetuate? :think:
I hadn't heard of Denver Snuffer, the Boise Rescue, the Swedish Rescue... I feel very out of the loop. Where do you guys hear about all this stuff?
Mormon Stories for one.

Roy
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Re: Boise Rescue

Post by Roy » 18 Jun 2015, 10:07

Great summary Nibbler. You put what I was thinking into words.
Holy Cow wrote:Wow! This whole conversation has been an interesting one to me. I've been a member my whole life, and I've never heard anybody say that the apostles have seen Jesus. Do they really claim to have seen Christ, or is this one of those cultural legend things that people just perpetuate?
Yes to both questions. First, I read about a church leader asking people to not ask where Jesus has been seen in the SLC temple because "he walks these very halls" etc. I agree that we do not want to build mini-shrines in certain temple locations where JC has been reported to have been seen ("I saw Him in stall C of the locker room!")- so the church leader deflected that by implying that Jesus hangs out in the temple all the time and it is no big deal. Second, Brad Wilcox is a church motivational speaker in the same vein as John Bytheway. In one of His talks he says that we can believe in Jesus even though we have not seen Him because we know 15 men who have seen Him. 3rd, I have an insert in my scriptures that references church leaders claims of having seen JC. It is not entirely clear if these were visions or visitations. The last name on the list is Elder David B. Haight. 4th, In EC our president relayed a story about low HT numbers. He said that President Hinckley was in a meeting and responded to the low national figures and said, "How can I go to the Lord with numbers such as that?". Our president interpreted this as an acknowledgement of weekly visits. So yes, there is mostly a lot of hearsay evidence that the Q15 have not actively repudiated.

Also the job of Apostle is to function as a witness of the life and ministry of JC. The original apostles had all been with JC in life. Even when it came time to replace Judas they did so from among the followers of JC. Paul describes himself as an Apostle "born out of season" because he did not see JC in life but did see him in vision.

(As an aside I am glad that Elder Oaks clarified that modern apostles are called to testify or witness to the mission or plan of JC and not necessarily to personal visitations. IMO This is a step in the right direction of not putting our leadership on such an infallible pedestal.)

JS didn't do us any favors in this regard either because he taught that the Second Comforter and more sure word of prophecy/ calling and election made sure was to have a visitation of JC. Rough Stone Rolling makes the case that JS seemed to be trying to prepare the saints to enter the literal presence of the lord with a repeat of the day of pentacost and "endowment of power." Over time these sayings were repurposed to apply towards the temple but it was not always the case. Brother Adrian Larsen (the brother that was recently excommunicated in the Boise area) says that the temple ceremonies are just dress rehersals or practice for the real deal. He is inviting people to "come unto Christ" and have such experiences right now. He seems to view the church not so much in apostasy but instead as limiting. Just as the law of Moses was the schoolmaster to point to JC, so too the LDS church. But (from what I can gather from his blog) there is a time to outgrow the training wheels and move on to a direct relationship with JC.

Bro. Larsen has a pretty decent scriptural argument (with certain scriptures being emphasized and taken very very literally).
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

Ann
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Re: Boise Rescue

Post by Ann » 18 Jun 2015, 11:03

It's hard in internet times. They were addressing potential break-offs, but the rest of us are listening. To my mind, they didn't address the "key questions" in their set-up at abut the seven or eight-minute mark: (this is my transcribing, so may not be perfect)
In determining who's on the Lord's side in these latter-days there are two major questions.

For most non-Mormons and for some Mormons, the key question is how they feel about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.

For most Mormons, the key question of who's on the Lord's side is how they feel about the church's current prophetic leadership.

If those feelings are sufficiently negative they take members into apostacy."


Isn't the key question in determining who's on the Lord's side in these latter-days how you feel about the Lord? One could say it is a given, a formality that would just have taken time, but I would strongly disagree. It needs to be in the forefront.

Neither speaker really addressed those "sufficiently negative" feelings. Sufficiently negative. I was excited at the beginning because I thought he was going to talk turkey about prophets past, and in so doing, provide a path forward. Instead he talked about the occasional fruit fly on the good fruits of the gospel. It's probably not appropriate for regular Sunday meetings, but in a meeting like this, we need talk about the gospel fruitbowl. Along with all the eternally-fresh, gorgeous stuff, there's some rotten fruit in there! That's why the fruit flies are there. Let's talk about how the process of investigating and determining what it is, how it's complicated and shouldn't be done with roughness or haste, maybe. Let's talk about the symbiotic relationship between a patient, faithful membership and our leaders. How can the gospel as presented in our church be sufficiently positive and fresh?

Instead the whole thing seemed adversarial, us vs. them, in-group vs. outgroup, a throw back. I like what Richard Bushman said in "On the Road with Joseph Smith," his book about writing Rough Stone Rolling:
I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ.... Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

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mom3
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Re: Boise Rescue

Post by mom3 » 18 Jun 2015, 11:20

From KUTV in Salt Lake City Utah -
After the audio of this meeting was posted online, it sparked a lot of discussion on blogs and other sites. Many speculated Snuffer and others like him were the reason for this meeting. Snuffer told 2News traffic to his website has spiked since the Boise gathering.

But the church insists that's not the case, and that Oaks simply saw the opportunity to visit Boise to teach important doctrines of the church.
http://kutv.com/news/local/lds-church-h ... se-prophet
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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LookingHard
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Re: Boise Rescue

Post by LookingHard » 18 Jun 2015, 11:24

Ann - I like that Bushman quote!

NonTraditionalMom
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Re: Boise Rescue

Post by NonTraditionalMom » 18 Jun 2015, 11:41

Ugh. Why does it feel like Public Relations is running this? If there were problems in Boise, just freaking say that there were problems in Boise.

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