Boise Rescue

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
Curt Sunshine
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Re: Boise Rescue

Post by Curt Sunshine » 15 Jun 2015, 17:42

I agree totally that if there is an organized crackdown and message trying to be sent it is to the ultra-conservative and extreme liberal factions - those that are saying the church leaders are apostate.

I actually find some comfort in the fact that three of the five most recent high-profile excommunications (Mattson, Snuffer and Waterman) are ultra-conservatives who, in some way, are calling for the Church to stop evolving and return to the glory days of yore. That idea scares me badly. Dehiln and Kelly don't fit that description, but both of them openly opposed the leadership and worked to create alternative organizations to challenge the Church directly.

I wish the brush didn't seem to paint so broadly, but I don't know of a high-profile excommunication of anyone who simply is advocating for change but not publicly castigating the leadership. mom3's list could be expanded greatly; I know personally hundreds of others who could be included.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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LookingHard
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Re: Boise Rescue

Post by LookingHard » 16 Jun 2015, 02:54

Roy wrote:It seems that boise has been somewhat of a hotbed of unrest lately. second hand reports suggest some have even banded together and started their own church. It also seems to be the right wing individuals that are causing the problem there. Saying that the church is in apostacy and that church leaders no longer reveal anything from God.

That adds some understanding to some of what is being said about avoiding false prophets and keeping faith in church leadership.
I live WAY outside the Mormon corridor. I have wondered why the church seems so reluctant to be progressive in some areas. I have come to understand in the last year that it is walking a tightrope between the progressives and the fundamentalists. Push to far on being progressive and they know they will have more people leaving for fundamentalism. It is something I don't see where I am at. I don't think I have ever heard of anybody actually liking polygamy. It was only about 10 years ago that I started hearing just how common it still is.

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DevilsAdvocate
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Re: Boise Rescue

Post by DevilsAdvocate » 16 Jun 2015, 07:46

DBMormon wrote:Very frustrated today and sad. I no longer feel wanted...two thoughts from this audio. They have tried to work with doubters and fed up. We are no longer welcome. Either be quiet or leave

*** Oaks stated something like
"The Key Question in determining who is on the Lord's side is how one feels about the church's prophetic leadership and these feelings determine whether one is in apostasy or not."
Oaks says
"Questions lead to faith and revelation whereas doubts lead to disobedience."
To be honest I don't really expect anything different out of these guys anymore and I would be surprised if they actually said something significantly different from what they have already been saying repeatedly for years. Remember that Dallin H. Oaks is the same guy that said it is always wrong to criticize Church leaders "even if the criticism is valid" and various other examples of dogmatic authoritarian thinking so I see this reaction to "apostasy" as mostly just another example of Oaks being Oaks.

The interesting thing about this meeting to me is that it sounds like they actually responded to some good and straightforward questions like, "The leaders won't answer our doubts, why not?" but it looks like they simply don't have any decent faith-promoting answers that are likely to satisfy anyone with serious doubts so instead they fell back on trying to discourage doubt and critical thinking altogether. It basically sounds like, "Trust us; we know what's best for you." Well what happens if they don't know what they are talking about to begin with, is there any way within this system of, "Follow the leaders no matter what" to rectify the situation in that case (Matthew 15:14)?
"Truth is what works." - William James

NonTraditionalMom
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Re: Boise Rescue

Post by NonTraditionalMom » 16 Jun 2015, 09:52

DevilsAdvocate wrote:Well what happens if they don't know what they are talking about to begin with, is there any way within this system of, "Follow the leaders no matter what" to rectify the situation in that case (Matthew 15:14)?
I was watching a rerun of The West Wing the other night, and one of the characters said something about how the founding fathers knew that power would corrupt, so they set up a system of checks and balances to keep that corruption in check. I'm not saying that the US government is a model of morality or anything, but it did make me think about the system in the church. Do we have any kind of check and balances in the church?

It's kind of a scary logic to say that I'm right because I said I'm right.

GBSmith
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Re: Boise Rescue

Post by GBSmith » 16 Jun 2015, 10:30

Ray DeGraw wrote:I agree totally that if there is an organized crackdown and message trying to be sent it is to the ultra-conservative and extreme liberal factions - those that are saying the church leaders are apostate.

I actually find some comfort in the fact that three of the five most recent high-profile excommunications (Mattson, Snuffer and Waterman) are ultra-conservatives who, in some way, are calling for the Church to stop evolving and return to the glory days of yore...
I tried to google Mattson and couldn't tell if he was excommunicated or resigned. From what I read in the NYTimes piece and heard on Mormon Stories he was disturbed because of the history issues but I didn't see that he was speaking against the leadership or wanted the Church to stop evolving. He just seemed like such a decent guy who had the rug pulled out from under him. Just wondering.

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mom3
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Re: Boise Rescue

Post by mom3 » 16 Jun 2015, 10:54

I tried to google Mattson and couldn't tell if he was excommunicated or resigned. From what I read in the NYTimes piece and heard on Mormon Stories he was disturbed because of the history issues but I didn't see that he was speaking against the leadership or wanted the Church to stop evolving. He just seemed like such a decent guy who had the rug pulled out from under him. Just wondering.
I believe he resigned, where the story takes a similar strain, is that he didn't go quietly, he publicized it, which added fire to others doubts and concerns. If I put the few pieces together, there was a bit of a mass exodus or rumors of such in Sweden.

I think they are trying to stop or protect mass fall out.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Boise Rescue

Post by hawkgrrrl » 16 Jun 2015, 10:55

mom3:
On the short list are the following, Carol Lynn Pearson, Mitch Maynes, Robert or Bob Rees, The Givens, BCC team, Kristine Haglund - Dialogue Editor, Joanna Brooks, Dan Wotherspoon, Michael Barker, Wheat & Tares bloggers, Times & Seasons bloggers - this is a speedy go over. So far they still maintain their membership, espouse a nuanced view, engage in conversation and remain in the faithful category or at the least - not an enemy category.
Dang, I'm on that list twice!

It's hard to say why people do what they do. On a bad day, I think it's the natural blinders of being Stage 3. I certainly think that's the ranks of the top leadership in general because they do cull from "company men," and that's what you get. But I also have a natural respect for age and have always assumed that with age comes wisdom. Unfortunately, one thing that seems apparent to me is that there are two factors that greatly reduce one's access to wisdom: living in a bubble or echo chamber by reducing the external feedback you get and the new experiences you have (this happens more naturally to some people than others - unfortunately, in our church we do often isolate our leaders from dissenting views by surrounding them with yes men and women), and a hardening of one's ability to empathize. The second one is tough to say what causes it, but being successful can lead to the idea that those who aren't successful deserve failure or haven't paid the price you have when often success is helped along by privilege, luck and circumstance. Trying to give advice to others when you can't empathize with them doesn't resonate.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Boise Rescue

Post by DarkJedi » 16 Jun 2015, 12:44

NonTraditionalMom wrote:
DevilsAdvocate wrote:Well what happens if they don't know what they are talking about to begin with, is there any way within this system of, "Follow the leaders no matter what" to rectify the situation in that case (Matthew 15:14)?
I was watching a rerun of The West Wing the other night, and one of the characters said something about how the founding fathers knew that power would corrupt, so they set up a system of checks and balances to keep that corruption in check. I'm not saying that the US government is a model of morality or anything, but it did make me think about the system in the church. Do we have any kind of check and balances in the church?

It's kind of a scary logic to say that I'm right because I said I'm right.
I think the closest we come to a check and balance is that the Q15 pretty much have to agree on anything major - and it wasn't always that way. They are not the "yes men" many in the church believe them to be, they do have varying opinions and disagreements. I honestly don't think under the current president that has been a big issue, he hasn't done anything major for one thing. But I think some recent past presidents have been kept in check by this and I could see how some who could potentially reach the big chair might run into it.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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GBSmith
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Re: Boise Rescue

Post by GBSmith » 16 Jun 2015, 13:14

DarkJedi wrote:
NonTraditionalMom wrote:
DevilsAdvocate wrote:Well what happens if they don't know what they are talking about to begin with, is there any way within this system of, "Follow the leaders no matter what" to rectify the situation in that case (Matthew 15:14)?
I was watching a rerun of The West Wing the other night, and one of the characters said something about how the founding fathers knew that power would corrupt, so they set up a system of checks and balances to keep that corruption in check. I'm not saying that the US government is a model of morality or anything, but it did make me think about the system in the church. Do we have any kind of check and balances in the church?

It's kind of a scary logic to say that I'm right because I said I'm right.
I think the closest we come to a check and balance is that the Q15 pretty much have to agree on anything major - and it wasn't always that way. They are not the "yes men" many in the church believe them to be, they do have varying opinions and disagreements. I honestly don't think under the current president that has been a big issue, he hasn't done anything major for one thing. But I think some recent past presidents have been kept in check by this and I could see how some who could potentially reach the big chair might run into it.
Mormon Heretic has a post on Wheat and Tares that speaks to this. It's a summary of the recent MHA meetings and talks about Pres. McKay having to deal with some of the 12 and their attitudes about race and the priesthood. The days of a president like BY who could do what he wanted are long gone.

JAC
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Re: Boise Rescue

Post by JAC » 16 Jun 2015, 15:36

I wanted to provide some context of the "Boise Rescue" because their has been a lot of speculation swirling around out there. Unfortunately I don't know everything, but here is what I pieced together...

First, it was in Eagle, Idaho, not Boise. Actually, it was held in the Star Idaho Stake Center which happens to be in Eagle.

Second, three stakes were invited to attend this meeting. All adults from the Star, Eagle, and Meridian North Stakes were invited to attend the meeting that has been posted on Mormon Stories. There was also a meeting early Sunday morning for priests and laurels from those stakes - I imagine a similar message was given to them, but I don't know.

Third, Before the adult meeting on Saturday there was a leadership meeting where all of the leadership in the greater Boise Area was invited to attend. There, Oaks had some stark warnings and predictions for those leaders. He told everyone there that in ten years we will not be able to share our religious beliefs outside our homes without intense persecution.

Fourth, this meeting was announced in sacrament meeting less than two weeks before it occurred. The news was broke by reading a letter from a seventy (sorry, didn't recognize or remember the name) urging us all to attend. The only clue we were given to the subject matter was that it was going to address "matters of church history." No people that I talked to picked up on that meaning this was going to address doubts, apostasy, false prophets, etc. Being familiar with Elder Turley's involvement with the Swedish Rescue I had a good idea what was coming.

Fifth, Adrian Larsen (http://www.totheremnant.com/2014/10/40- ... h-row.html) was recently excommunicated in the Meridian North Stake (one of the stakes invited to attend). The word on the street is he has developed quite the following. This group is definitely ultra conservative apostates that agree with Denver Snuffer and Rock Waterman. One of my best friends was invited to attend their meetings but turned them down.

Sixth, Eagle, Star, and North Meridian are fairly affluent as far as Idaho goes, however, I do not think that money was a determining factor when choosing this area for their presentation. I've seen people propagating that theory on message boards and I think it is unwarranted.

Seventh, these three stakes surround the new Meridian Temple being built (still a few years from completion). In fact, the temple is being built in the Star Stake, which is where this presentation was delivered. It is well established in Mormon culture that Satan attacks areas where temples are being built. Whether that is true or not, I don't know, but I do know Oaks and Turley believe this, and that belief was likely a determining factor in choosing the location.

One last thing - last fall I was speaking with a stake president from one of these stakes (sorry, I don't want to be specific to protect him). When I told him about my faith crisis and how I know many people leaving the church he told me "oh, it's epidemic!". Those were his words exactly. By the tone he used I could tell it was something that greatly concerned him.

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