Deceived

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
roobytoos
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Joined: 07 Jun 2013, 10:34

Deceived

Post by roobytoos » 14 May 2015, 22:34

I have struggled of late with a faith crisis that I think was initially spurred by being treated poorly by ward members. That is no longer a significant part of my faith crisis, it is so much more complex than that. Anyway, the other day as I was driving home from work, I had a very distinct thought come to mind (I hesitate to call it revelation. I like to believe I have good thoughts all on my own without interference from the Divine)...the thought was simply to love my fellow ward members and to be patient with them for they are the "deceived" and not the deceivers. It's helped me to understand those I associate with at church a bit. I'm thinking it helps me with the golden rule. As I judge less, perhaps I can feel less judged? It gave me hope for that at the very least. I just wanted to share with people that might appreciate the thought. :smile:

Ann
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Joined: 09 Sep 2012, 02:17

Re: Deceived

Post by Ann » 14 May 2015, 23:43

roobytoos, thanks for recording that here. I need reminders that patience is a virtue.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

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DarkJedi
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Re: Deceived

Post by DarkJedi » 15 May 2015, 08:22

Much of the way I cope with church/church people is this same way. I don't call it being deceived, necessarily (I'm open to the idea that I'm the one deceived), but finding the peace in allowing others to believe what they will while I believe what I do is freeing. I do still struggle with it from time to time, I have little problem with seeing the belief of another as simply different from what I believe. It is, in fact, very much the same as how I view people of other religions.

Thanks for sharing, I do appreciate the thought. And you also make a good point that our faith crises are not simple.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Minyan Man
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Joined: 15 Sep 2011, 13:40

Re: Deceived

Post by Minyan Man » 15 May 2015, 08:42

roobytoos said:
...I had a very distinct thought come to mind (I hesitate to call it revelation.
Any time I feel that I'm being taught a spiritual lesson, no matter how basic it may seem, it is still a personal revelation for me.
Don't hesitate, accept it for what it feels to you. Thanks for posting.

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Heber13
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Re: Deceived

Post by Heber13 » 15 May 2015, 10:23

I have found a lot of differences in the ward. There are some that are deceived, some that are deceivers, some that seem to really get it, and some that think I'm deceived.

I don't think you can lump everyone in one group or you're deceiving yourself.

Truly...the idea of being patient and loving to others is what it is all about. Thanks for the thought about helping to reduce angst about judgments. :thumbup:
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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mom3
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Re: Deceived

Post by mom3 » 15 May 2015, 10:28

I read an account on a blog the other day which touches on this premise a bit. The blogger was telling about her struggle with Prop 8. She lived in California and was praying to know what to do, support the churches stand or her hearts stand. As she was praying she felt the words - love even the ones who are different from you. When she first finished the prayer she assumed she knew who she was supposed to love, as the day wore on she realized it was a much broader impression. No matter which way she voted or participated, some one would be different from her and she was to love all of them. She said it was the hardest thing she has ever had to do.

Your impression sounds very similar - kindness, respect, and courtesy to everyone, no matter if they see it your way or their way.

As Hawkgrrl often says, "It's being an Adult with God."

Thanks for sharing, we all need the reminder to love our fellow men.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

Ann
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Joined: 09 Sep 2012, 02:17

Re: Deceived

Post by Ann » 15 May 2015, 10:48

mom3 wrote:I read an account on a blog the other day which touches on this premise a bit. The blogger was telling about her struggle with Prop 8. She lived in California and was praying to know what to do, support the churches stand or her hearts stand. As she was praying she felt the words - love even the ones who are different from you. When she first finished the prayer she assumed she knew who she was supposed to love, as the day wore on she realized it was a much broader impression. No matter which way she voted or participated, some one would be different from her and she was to love all of them. She said it was the hardest thing she has ever had to do.
Great story. Thank you.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

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SilentDawning
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Re: Deceived

Post by SilentDawning » 15 May 2015, 11:06

A lady I confided in during one of my early commitment crises (a TBM TR-holder) said "You've seen a side of it most members' haven't". She was very non-judgmental, and I think her perspective was healthy.

That man in a white shirt and tie, who oozes black and white thinking all over the pulpit, may well be someone who had TBM parents who were B&W. He may have received nothing but positive experiences in the church, and may have consistently received church kudos given his personality fit with the church. Well, his perspective is different than mine. He may well think the way I do, if he had my personality and life's experiences in the church.

I tell myself that now and then.

I take comfort in the fact I can relate to the fringe-types in the church -- when so many others can't.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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DarkJedi
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Re: Deceived

Post by DarkJedi » 15 May 2015, 12:54

I was once told something very similar by a TBM leader, SD. Reading this reminded me of the following quote, relevant to this conversation. Elder Holland is speaking of the prodigal son's older brother:
Feeling unappreciated and perhaps more than a little self-pity, this dutiful son—and he is wonderfully dutiful—forgets for a moment that he has never had to know filth or despair, fear or self-loathing. He forgets for a moment that every calf on the ranch is already his and so are all the robes in the closet and every ring in the drawer. He forgets for a moment that his faithfulness has been and always will be rewarded.
I think those who have never had major challenges to their faith or in life in general are very much like the older brother. Likewise, some have had these challenges are like him. They either don't know or forget that they have not experienced what we have. Part of how I cope with others at church has to do with this idea - I have not had their experiences, neither have they had mine. They may not understand what's it like to not feel the Spirit even though someone has tried because it hasn't happened to them. They may not know what it's like to not have prayers answered or feel like prayers bounce off the ceiling because it hasn't happened to them.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

Roy
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Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Deceived

Post by Roy » 17 May 2015, 12:03

In thinking about people that are deceived I think about Assumptive Realities and the somewhat different but related concept of Functional Illusions.

These Illusions and Assumptions help us to function. They help us to build communities and meaning from our lives.

I remember in a grief class learning about the loss of the assumptive reality and building a new one. I wondered why anyone who had experienced the trauma of having their assumptive reality crash around them would want to build another. Would it not be safer to just live in reality?

1) It is not that easy. Our very identity and how we understand ourselves and relate to other people is laced with assumptions and illusions. By nurture, nature, or a combination of the two - we are built to structure a parrallel world in our own minds that is only loosely based on the hard proven data world outside of us.

2) I too have assumptions and illusions. The bumper sticker says "Don't judge me because I sin differently than you." Perhaps it could be changed to say "Don't judge me because I assume differently than you."

3) Many assumptions can be healthy and helpful.

Knowing this, I try to be a little bit more deliberate in the assumptions that I choose (and model for my children). I have hope in concepts and virtues that are so beautiful that I want them to mean something - to have significance. I lend my own tiny voice to those that I believe are helping society live out these ideals in a better way. I sometimes encounter people that have assumptions that I believe to be harmful to varying degrees (ISIS and skinheads seem to be on the extreme end of what it means to be harmful). I have hope that as groups, communities, countries band together to seek after our more beautiful ideals then these violent and extreme groups will grow increasingly marginalized - increasingly out of touch with what it means to be a citizen of the world. Perhaps these hopes are just another version of living in a fantasy land. I am ok with that. It is a fantasy land of my own make and choosing. I hold the keys to change or alter it if and when it becomes neccessary.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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