I need help.

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
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Heber13
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Re: I need help.

Post by Heber13 » 05 Mar 2015, 21:34

metalrain wrote:
taletotell wrote:I need to build more of a tolerance. I don't know why I care so much. Partly because I feel trapped, I think. My wife isn't as far gone as I am and wants to continue living the culture.
Yeah, I can feel your frustration in your posts bud. I'm not sure what to tell you but disconnecting yourself and realizing the church isn't the dictator of your happiness either way is what's helped me the most, removed most of the guilt, and has been freeing to say the least. Everyone says it over and over here but it's true... the gospel and the church are not the same thing. When the faith crisis first hit me I reached out to people to feel validated in my concerns. There is only 2-3 people I talk about it occasionally with now besides this forum. Maybe you should take your wife/kids/family on a little vacation or road trip this weekend if possible?
[Admin note: OK...it's been 5 pages of discussion (good discussion) since metalrain has talked about help he needed. If anyone wants to discuss help they need support for on their specific issues, please start a new thread under Support and let's direct other discussion there.

Metalrain should be the next person to post on this thread his thoughts or further questions needing help on the topics bothering him or his progression.]
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

metalrain
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Re: I need help.

Post by metalrain » 06 Mar 2015, 04:15

Hey thanks Heber. I'm kind of enjoying just letting it go because if someone is gaining help or being helped through the tangents then I think it's a good thing- we're in this together.

I have some of the same struggles as TTT- the whole black and white approach we've always been taught is.. partially true I think. But we can choose to live in a gray world. D&C 58:27, summarized, being an agent unto ourselves I think might have application with this. It's a long process. Part of me sometimes just wants to throw it all away, but I haven't investigated hard enough. I was on a run yesterday in the mountains, I stopped in the middle of my run and overlooking the valley poured out my heart and soul and didn't feel anything in response. That hurt. I don't know if it's just because I don't recognize things anymore, or if I'm supposed to be left to walk on my own for a while.

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DarkJedi
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Re: I need help.

Post by DarkJedi » 06 Mar 2015, 07:24

metalrain wrote:Hey thanks Heber. I'm kind of enjoying just letting it go because if someone is gaining help or being helped through the tangents then I think it's a good thing- we're in this together.

I have some of the same struggles as TTT- the whole black and white approach we've always been taught is.. partially true I think. But we can choose to live in a gray world. D&C 58:27, summarized, being an agent unto ourselves I think might have application with this. It's a long process. Part of me sometimes just wants to throw it all away, but I haven't investigated hard enough. I was on a run yesterday in the mountains, I stopped in the middle of my run and overlooking the valley poured out my heart and soul and didn't feel anything in response. That hurt. I don't know if it's just because I don't recognize things anymore, or if I'm supposed to be left to walk on my own for a while.
You were up very early Provo time - early morning custodial job? (My son has one of the hundreds of those.)

I agree that some things are black and white - either Jesus is the Savior or not, there's not much wiggle room there. There are some other things about him that could be interpreted differently, though - gray stuff.

And it is a long process, many of us have been at it for years. On the other hand, I have come to understand that conversion itself is a long process - it is not an event. Pres. Uchtdorf recently alluded to the idea that the restoration is an ongoing process, it wasn't an event.

I have had similiar experiences to your prayer yesterday, times where I have prayed with real intent and just laid it all out there with nothing. I still struggle with that, it was a part of my own faith crisis that is not yet resolved - and I don't see a resolution in the near future. I don't know why, either - but it is what it is, and right now I can live with the idea that some things just are.

As a moderator, I appreciate your sentiments about the thread going on perhaps in hopes it would help others. There are many lurkers here, members of the forums and not, and we never know who we're going to affect. However, this thread was started by you to help you, and it needs to get back to that. Others can start their own threads for their own questions and discussions. How can we help you?
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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West
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Re: I need help.

Post by West » 06 Mar 2015, 11:28

metalrain wrote:I was on a run yesterday in the mountains, I stopped in the middle of my run and overlooking the valley poured out my heart and soul and didn't feel anything in response. That hurt. I don't know if it's just because I don't recognize things anymore, or if I'm supposed to be left to walk on my own for a while.
It's taken me a long time, but I've learned that I don't get the standard "feeling" answers to prayers, and that's OK. That's just how I am. Over time, I've been led to believe that my answers come in ways that my logical mind can accept, usually through multiple coincidences and chance encounters and interactions, and that the God I believe in trusts me to be able to come upon the answer in my own, unique way. Sometimes, there seem to be more than one "correct" answer, and it's up to me to choose; so far in life, when such a choice has come up, I've always seemed to be in the right place at the right time.

That doesn't work for everyone. Just as the standard feeling answers don't work for everyone, such as people like me.
Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid. -Albert Einstein

And God said 'Love Your Enemy,' and I obeyed him and loved myself. -Kahlil Gibran

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mom3
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Re: I need help.

Post by mom3 » 06 Mar 2015, 12:09

metalrain wrote:
I was on a run yesterday in the mountains, I stopped in the middle of my run and overlooking the valley poured out my heart and soul and didn't feel anything in response. That hurt. I don't know if it's just because I don't recognize things anymore, or if I'm supposed to be left to walk on my own for a while.
Like West said, it will be different for everyone.

Over the past years as I have wrestled, cried out and yearned, I too have felt silence. One day in particular it hurt. My natural inclination was to assume I was unworthy to hear. That hurt. In that grief though I heard, "I love you." I should have felt better but it felt worse. I began to wrestle with those 3 words. What did they mean, what did they validate and so on. As I kept wrestling I had a strange sense. I felt like one of my kids, sitting at the kitchen table working on hard math problem, just to the side of me stood my parent. Not completely gone from the room, but back just enough to watch me wrestle the problem. I may get it wrong or right, but it was the effort and experience of the effort that made it necessary for the parent and child to have some space.

Right now I cling to that, I no longer expect answers, I keep communicating, mostly through expressions of gratitude or just saying "Hey I am worried about this or someone." Then I repeat the line from the Lord's prayer -"On earth as it is in heaven." Then I get up and try to make a go of life.

I believe he really is proud of each of us. For him watching us go to school is tough. I know as a Mom I step in so often, just to fix things. His restraint is amazing. Keep running, keep talking, he is there.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

metalrain
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Re: I need help.

Post by metalrain » 06 Mar 2015, 18:21

DarkJedi- I was just up late on a bender watching the newest season of Walking Dead. I can't put the shows down when I start sometimes :shock: . I think if a zombie apocalypse happened, not having to worry about faith and only surviving would be convenient in a sense, don't you agree? :lol:

I think, if the restoration was true, it by definition HAS to be an ongoing process. If it's not, then it's not a restoration. So that's true.

West, I know what you mean. I feel like a lot of us are cut from similar molds in terms of God letting us make our own decision and having the trust that we will do the right thing. Unfortunately as a result, I feel like our course corrections are often "harder".

Mom, does it bother you you don't get answers like that? I mean, do you think it's ok that you don't expect answers? I have a hard time being ok not getting anything back... by definition, prayer is a communion, a mutual conversation. I think when I prayed before my faith crisis when things were going well, hearing back was important, but I felt like I knew things that I don't now. And now that I don't know, I feel like I NEED to hear an answer back to help me keep going.

I met with some friends today who are married, and both of them have been through what I've been going through and it helped. One of them from a young age had separated the church and the gospel however. I wish I would have been told that when I was a youth and not as a young adult. Changing paradigms SUCKS.

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On Own Now
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Re: I need help.

Post by On Own Now » 06 Mar 2015, 19:23

metalrain wrote:Changing paradigms SUCKS.
Haha... yep, that's true... at the beginning, and sometimes for a while. But many find a rewarding new light ahead of them; not everyone, but many. That's why it is important to strive for it.
- - -
“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.” ― Carl Jung
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"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." ― Romans 14:13
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mom3
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Re: I need help.

Post by mom3 » 06 Mar 2015, 20:34

metalrain wrote
I wish I would have been told that when I was a youth and not as a young adult. Changing paradigms SUCKS.
YEP, try doing it at 50. Oh wait you don't know 50 yet. It's pretty fun. :)
Mom, does it bother you you don't get answers like that? I mean, do you think it's ok that you don't expect answers? I have a hard time being ok not getting anything back... by definition, prayer is a communion, a mutual conversation. I think when I prayed before my faith crisis when things were going well, hearing back was important, but I felt like I knew things that I don't now. And now that I don't know, I feel like I NEED to hear an answer back to help me keep going.
In the beginning yes. I had always had the promptings, answers, dreams, voices, experiences. The silence was terrifying. I was afraid I was being punished. This added intensely to the darkness. I wanted to scream forever and make it go away. Then one day during one of the long dark heart wrenching days, while sitting on my floor crying, an image popped before my face. A little girl, crying, surrounded by a pile of toppled over wooden blocks. Suddenly 2 people joined the little girl - her deceased, never active in the church, grandmother, and Jesus Christ (or a representation of him). I knew in that moment who the little girl was, and that help was on it's way. Two weeks later, while rock climbing, I got stuck. My hands were loosing grip, my knees ached from the crevice my toes were crammed into, when again an image burst forth, two scarred, battered hands were climbing next to me just for a moment. Immediately I knew what the hands represented. They were a reminder that this life is like a hard climb but it can be done, and I could trust that divine resources were available.

I had waited nearly 3 years for those. I thought the heavens were opened again (and they were) but not like a faucet. I have now learned, I hope, to hold out a bit longer when the silent hours come. Today after I wrote you, I remembered that Joseph Smith had a similar situation. This masterful vision in a grove. Life changing for him and many others. Yet three years pass and nothing. We rarely think about those 3 years. Did he pray? Was God silent? Who knows. On top of that, if the story is accurate, he didn't get what he wanted. He just wanted to know his standing before God. Instead he gets an Angel, a long lecture. Repeats of the lecture and whole new life.

My only suggestion is don't throw away the few you had. They have validity. I think you are doing great.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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Just A Girl
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Re: I need help.

Post by Just A Girl » 06 Mar 2015, 21:37

Hi, metalrain

It's good to have you here! Your story really resonates with me- many of us here are still in that position, or have been. It looks like there has been some great advice on here, and I hope you find it and the rest of this forum helpful. You're not alone at all. ;)
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LookingHard
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Re: I need help.

Post by LookingHard » 06 Mar 2015, 22:10

mom3 wrote:YEP, try doing it at 50. Oh wait you don't know 50 yet. It's pretty fun. :)
It does. I remember reading in Fowler's book on the stages of faith that it is best to move out of stage 3 in early 20's. Mine was right as I was turning 50. I felt like an old fart AND my world was falling apart.

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