I need help.

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
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Heber13
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Re: I need help.

Post by Heber13 » 05 Mar 2015, 14:05

Great quotes, DJ!
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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DarkJedi
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Re: I need help.

Post by DarkJedi » 05 Mar 2015, 14:12

Heber13 wrote:Great quotes, DJ!
Straight from my reservoir of talk helps! :D
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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West
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Re: I need help.

Post by West » 05 Mar 2015, 14:28

Just chiming in about the truth thing, because why not. xD I don't think we're meant to know the full, unquestionable, objective truth. I don't even know if such a truth exists, particularly because we each have our own individualized realities based on our experiences and viewpoints. I like being able to determine my own truth and reality, though, and I love that other people are able to do the same.

Also, thanks for the quotes about love. I get so caught up myself in those appendages sometimes that I forget how simple the Gospel is compared to how complex the Church culture sometimes makes it.
Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid. -Albert Einstein

And God said 'Love Your Enemy,' and I obeyed him and loved myself. -Kahlil Gibran

Curt Sunshine
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Re: I need help.

Post by Curt Sunshine » 05 Mar 2015, 14:29

I loved Elder Wirthlin, deeply, and was amazed constantly by the gems in so many of his talks that didn't have as much of an impact when he spoke (due to his delivery method) as when they were read after the fact.

He wasn't infallible, either, and I have no problem not agreeing with everything he said.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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taletotell
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Re: I need help.

Post by taletotell » 05 Mar 2015, 15:06

So you don't at all feel like you have hamstrung the church when you cut the need for continual revelation via an interrupted line of priesthood authority?
I used to separate the the church from the gospel, but I don't do so as much now. You don't gather figs of thistles after all.
I also would say the church can and does have beliefs. They are found in the articles of faith and proclamation, and elsewhere.
Lastly I would say that the gospel in its fullness must be more than the atonement and resurrection because the LDS church is supposed to have the corner on the fullness of the gospel, but almost 1/3 of the world has that.
I am realizing I don't really belong here. I mean no offense, but it sounds to me like your message is believe what you want and believe that it is what the gospel according to LDS approves of even if the LDS Church doesn't. I can't do that. If I believe something else I can't pretend God agrees with me and just hasn't told his church about it. If I believe something is true and that he has a true church he will tell them.
I believe that homosexuality is not a sin, and that is a big deal. If I think God is okay with it then either he hasn't told his church yet (in thousands of years), I am wrong, or they aren't his church. Maybe I am just not ready to be here, but it seems like I have been telling myself the church vs gospel story for years and I don't believe it anymore.

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mom3
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Re: I need help.

Post by mom3 » 05 Mar 2015, 15:47

Taletotell - You maybe right, it maybe time to take a big break, not just from us. I understand, many of us here have taken breaks, then roads lead back. Yes we are working with non-traditional paradigms and that is hard. Being in the middle tends to offend both sides. Those who fully reject LDSness or those who more fully embrace it. We don't claim our way is for everybody, but there are a lot of different reasons to STAY. None of these may apply to your life, and if not, we hope you will find peace, joy, fulfillment and the answers you seek in life.

As to the LGBT struggle, plenty of active members believe as you do. Every day they are working to influence that thought. They love (and many of us on this board) their LGBT brothers and sisters. The exclusion of LGBT is not an LDS only thing. I know some private congregations embrace LGBT, and I believe it will continue to grow in time, but plenty still don't. Even the Catholics whose Pope is inviting LGBT members back to the fold, is not getting his congregants support on the matter. And according to Catholics, they are the only true church because they were founded from Peter, the Apostle of Jesus Christ.

Today's discussion has been enlightening to me. I have learned a lot from all sides. Thanks for giving us your ideas, we welcome the conversations. Good luck.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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nibbler
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Re: I need help.

Post by nibbler » 05 Mar 2015, 16:18

In Are You Sleeping through the Restoration? Uchtdorf said:
Sometimes we think of the Restoration of the gospel as something that is complete, already behind us—Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon, he received priesthood keys, the Church was organized. In reality, the Restoration is an ongoing process; we are living in it right now. It includes “all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal,” and the “many great and important things” that “He will yet reveal.”2 Brethren, the exciting developments of today are part of that long-foretold period of preparation that will culminate in the glorious Second Coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ.
I look at that and question how the church can have a fullness of anything if there's still room for more revelations, if there's still room to grow.
taletotell wrote:I believe that homosexuality is not a sin, and that is a big deal. If I think God is okay with it then either he hasn't told his church yet (in thousands of years), I am wrong, or they aren't his church. Maybe I am just not ready to be here, but it seems like I have been telling myself the church vs gospel story for years and I don't believe it anymore.
Maybe god has been telling people but it's taken us (the human race as a whole) thousands of years to finally get to a point where we start to hear it. Also, I wouldn't characterize it as the church vs gospel, I might characterize it as the church and the gospel. Just because they can be separated logically doesn't mean that they are pitted against each other.
taletotell wrote:Lastly I would say that the gospel in its fullness must be more than the atonement and resurrection because the LDS church is supposed to have the corner on the fullness of the gospel, but almost 1/3 of the world has that.
(emphasis added) According to who? I understand the sentiment coming from the perspective of the LDS church being the one and only true church... but lots of churches say that about themselves. ;)
Cure sometimes, treat often, comfort always.
— Hippocrates

Roy
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Re: I need help.

Post by Roy » 05 Mar 2015, 16:44

TTT, you apear to be saying that the church is either true (in the sense that it is the church with the most correct message and essential priesthood power) or it is false (in the sense that it offers a damnable false hope that is diverting people from the truth) and that you must make up your mind to either support it or fight againt it.

I understand that some LDS leaders have taught exactly that. I just do not see it that way. I believe that current LDS teachings are wrong about some things. I also believe that I am wrong about some things. I do not know what I am wrong about cuz then I could correct my errors and be right. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I adjust my errors as I enounter better information. Hopefully the church adjusts their errors as they enounter better information.

What if the church and I both draw lines in the sand and committ all our resources to arguing the point? What if at the end of the day we were both wrong? What if people get unneccessarily hurt in the stand-off?

From where I sit about the only thing that I can be sure of is being wrong (besides death and taxes ;) ).

So I spend my time loving and supporting and building up those that are important to me. I baptise my children and teach them the best I can. I contribute to the support structures (like the church) that hold the fabric of my community together. I anticipate further light and knowledge at some point and trust that God knows my heart throughout.

I understand that this can appear indecisive, "lukewarm", or "less valiant". That is ok. I am working on being more comfortable with myself despite how others might perceive or label me.

Just my individual perspective. Your mileage may vary.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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On Own Now
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Re: I need help.

Post by On Own Now » 05 Mar 2015, 16:54

TTT, There is no message that this site promotes. There is a very wide variety of what people here believe. The primary purpose of this site is to help people cope with their issues with the LDS Church/Doctrine/Culture while they are trying to stay connected to the Church in some way, for any variety of reasons. It's generally done in an attempt to find a peaceful coexistence.
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“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.” ― Carl Jung
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"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." ― Romans 14:13
- - -

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DarkJedi
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Re: I need help.

Post by DarkJedi » 05 Mar 2015, 18:13

I told myself I was going to back off this thread. But I I have to contribute this (from the reservoir again). Elder D. Todd Christofferson, April 2009:
The scriptures speak of the new and everlasting covenant. The new and everlasting covenant is the gospel of Jesus Christ. In other words, the doctrines and commandments of the gospel constitute the substance of an everlasting covenant between God and man that is newly restored in each dispensation. If we were to state the new and everlasting covenant in one sentence it would be this: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
I think it really is that simple.

TTT we do value more orthodox views - they really do help us stay more grounded. Of necessity we are an accepting group with great tolerance. All we ask is that anyone who comes here respects our individual views as much as we respect theirs.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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