I need help.

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
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taletotell
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Re: I need help.

Post by taletotell » 05 Mar 2015, 11:00

Don't worry. No one here offends me. I love when people are willing to share their souls with me, even if it disagrees with me.
I tend to argue the same way no matter what the topic. I love debate. Always have. My little sister and I used to argue for fun for hours. She is in law school now in Syracuse now.
I have not found this to be a cultural thing. I am pretty good at ignoring that stuff, though we used to refer to those hardliners as Utards when I was growing up. I don't feel especially condemned by the people of the church, though I do members who are for believing and teaching doctrines like universal Celestial exaltation.

Really it is just the doctrine as I perceive it that I have been struggling with.
Last edited by taletotell on 05 Mar 2015, 11:11, edited 2 times in total.

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taletotell
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Re: I need help.

Post by taletotell » 05 Mar 2015, 11:03

DarkJedi wrote: I get your frustration, and I understand. I, and others here, have been or are where you are. Ihave reached the conclusion that it's not black and white at all, it's all gray. We see through glass darkly. It's not an if/then proposition. The idea that God gives us specific blessing for specific things was part of my faith crisis. I bear you my witness that it doesn't really work that way - it rains on the good and the bad, and the sun shines on the good and the bad as well.
Though I wholeheartedly agree that it is not black and white we are not talking about what I believe to be true. We are talking about what the church believes, and though it doesn't come up directly in the temple interview, when they ask if you believe the teachings they are not asking if you believe in the teachings you like. I feel like the church is anti-buffet mormon. I think it is all black and white. No hyperbole. After all, "You cannot approach the gospel as you would a buffet or smorgasbord, choosing here a little and there a little. You must sit down to the whole feast and live the Lord’s loving commandments in their fullness." It’s Your Choice By Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin 1994. I know he is not infallible, but I won't accept that the church is only fallible when they disagree with me, and based on the quote he doesn't want me to either. Going buffet style means I reject the church's authority to rule in god's name, placing my own authority above that of the church. If I do that I am in apostasy.
If I were Unitarian I could get away with that, but not so much in the LDS church.

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taletotell
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Re: I need help.

Post by taletotell » 05 Mar 2015, 11:16

I know the church invites people who disagree to attend. The "Smokers Welcome" story comes to mind. As long as I don't teach my beliefs I won't be thrown out. I just feel sad that I feel stuck still going.

Maybe I have too negative a view for this forum. You guys are awesome, and many of you still believe very strongly, and that is a beautiful thing. i shouldn't try to blot it out. I think I will hang around for a while and try to be less forceful.

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richalger
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Re: I need help.

Post by richalger » 05 Mar 2015, 11:24

metalrain wrote:What are everyones thoughts on the temple?
I find meaning in the repeating of the covenants. That I am to covenant with God to improve myself. To cast off unhealthy practices. And to find my life in helping others to find healthier practices.

I find comfort in the blessings of the initiatory.

I find meaning in the connection I have to my ancestors and to my descendents. And to all the human family.

On the practical side. It is a quiet place to pause from the business of life and let God soak in. I sometimes find myself renewed in resolution to solve the issues with the relationships around me.

I like that it is a voluntary worship. I must of myself get myself to the temple.

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nibbler
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Re: I need help.

Post by nibbler » 05 Mar 2015, 11:26

mom3 wrote:Lastly - I have been at this 7 years, and over time I find that "The Church" and it's culture does differ. I have listened to Richard and Claudia Bushman and wished with all my heart I could live in their ward. Same with Carol Lynn Pearson. I can't though. I live here.
Maybe that's our calling. To be the Bushmans and the Pearsons of our local unit.
taletotell wrote:"You cannot approach the gospel as you would a buffet or smorgasbord, choosing here a little and there a little. You must sit down to the whole feast and live the Lord’s loving commandments in their fullness." It’s Your Choice By Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin 1994.
But he said gospel, not church. Some people equate the church with the gospel and aggressively promote that opinion. The challenge is turn the other cheek to that aggressiveness. There's also the challenge of asking ourselves "what is the gospel?" Answering that question is where we awaken our agency.
taletotell wrote:I won't accept that the church is only fallible when they disagree with me, and based on the quote he doesn't want me to either.


To me the "church" is either a building or a group of people so the church can't disagree with me. A person in the group we call church can disagree with me but they are only speaking from themselves, not the entire collective. Of course some people have been ceded authority by the collective to kick other people out. ;)
taletotell wrote:Going buffet style means I reject the church's authority to rule in god's name, placing my own authority above that of the church. If I do that I am in apostasy.
Apostasy of what? The gospel or some fallible intermediary? Isn't the goal of the gospel to prepare us to become like god, our own moral authority? Or the more brief... "you say that like it's a bad thing." ;)
Cure sometimes, treat often, comfort always.
— Hippocrates

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LookingHard
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Re: I need help.

Post by LookingHard » 05 Mar 2015, 11:33

mom3 wrote:The heavens dropped an unexpected package on your door step. It was wrapped in brown paper and left for you to decide what you will do with it.
Maybe I still have some juvenile-ish left in me, but I thought you were about to make the analogy of the brown paper bag full of dog poop and set on fire and knock and run. Then you step into the crap (all the history) trying to put the fire out (your doubts). Hey, the analogy does kind of fit. And the TBM's say, "Don't even open the door" :-)

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taletotell
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Re: I need help.

Post by taletotell » 05 Mar 2015, 11:38

So I am apostate from the church, but I am always trying to be true to my interpretation of the gospel. Sounds like most excommunicated members.

Curt Sunshine
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Re: I need help.

Post by Curt Sunshine » 05 Mar 2015, 11:42

[Admin Note]:
I tend to argue the same way no matter what the topic. I love debate.


Try to fight that tendency here. We aren't into debate or argument. That approach actually is against one aspect of our rules, of which there are few.

There is one basic reason for our lack of desire and refusal to allow debate - well, two related reasons:

1) A debate is about winning. We aren't about winning. We aren't about establishing or preaching a consensus. We aren't about a "one true" view of anything. We are about respectful sharing - and pretty much nothing else (except our umbrella mission of staying LDS).

2) Debating is about understanding someone else just enough to pick apart what they are saying - and it leads naturally to hyperbole and over-emphasis on minutae. Lack of careful, deep, charitable, caring, complete consideration divides - and we aren't about division. We are about inclusion and acceptance - even when others' views and experiences don't match our own. That is the antithesis of debate.

So . . .

Work on learning not to debate and argue here. Thoughtful questions are fine; questions framed in a debating manner are not.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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nibbler
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Re: I need help.

Post by nibbler » 05 Mar 2015, 11:44

taletotell wrote:So I am apostate from the church, but I am always trying to be true to my interpretation of the gospel. Sounds like most excommunicated members.
It does, doesn't it? :D

I won't challenge the leaders but I do feel free to ignore something that they say that I don't feel is in harmony with the gospel. If they're up for excommunicating people for ignoring something a leader says I'll take a number. ;)
Cure sometimes, treat often, comfort always.
— Hippocrates

Curt Sunshine
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Re: I need help.

Post by Curt Sunshine » 05 Mar 2015, 11:45

Nobody here is saying you are apostate to the Church - and relatively few local leaders, as an overall percentage, would say that, imo and ime.

Again, constructive discussion is what we do here - and that will be your challenge moving forward. We all want you here, and I mean that sincerely, but you have to understand how we operate and, even if it isn't natural, start to understand how we operate.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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