Gender Roles in Primary

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
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Forgotten_Charity
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Re: Gender Roles in Primary

Post by Forgotten_Charity » 29 Apr 2014, 12:10

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http://m.psychologytoday.com/blog/wired ... -workplace

Proclamation, regardless of how one feels, with refused to traditional roles as well as workplace roles are changing.
In that light, it has become irrelevant to the younger generation. The more it's pounded. The more they will mobilize with social networks. They don't want "deprogress" all the progress they see as a positive change in the world.

So ya, pounding the pulpit more will cause the rise and even bigger rise then what we hope to create.
Their children are showing the same the same progression along those lines.

It shows with willing to take less pay with more flexibility for causes and family they are passionate about. And to not let people correlate them into values they don't share.

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journeygirl
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Re: Gender Roles in Primary

Post by journeygirl » 30 Apr 2014, 14:28

On Own Now wrote:What drives me nuts about this is that there absolutely zero benefit to the Church in delineating roles by gender. I mean, would it cause the foundation of Heaven to shake if the song said:
1. Our Father has a family. It’s me!
It’s you, all others too: we are His children.
He sent each one of us to earth, through birth,
To live and learn here in fam’lies.

2. Our parents preside and also provide,
They love and teach the gospel to their children.
Parents lead in fam’ly prayer to share
Their love for Father in Heaven.

3. A parent’s purpose is to care, prepare,
To nurture and to strengthen all their children.
They teach children to obey and to pray,
To love and serve in the fam’ly.


4. I’ll love and serve my family and be
A good example to each fam’ly member.
And when I am a mom or dad, so glad,
I’ll help my fam’ly remember:

Chorus
God gave us families to help us become what He wants us to be—
This is how He shares His love, for the fam’ly is of God.


Couple of points:
This is what I've been thinking too. Why not just say the responsibilities of parents? Why do they insist on specifying who? If it really is so natural then they wouldn't need to tell us that men do this and women do that. They just would naturally split duties that way.

I'm a teacher in primary too, and I'm so glad April Sundays are over. (although I've heard there is more proclamation to come this fall). We got a lot of preside talk, even though as far as I can tell no one knows what that really means in a family anymore. There was a tiny bit about families with different situations, but of course it was stressed that their arraignment isn't ideal and they aren't happy about it. I guess that song will continue though. Also, this may just be my ward, but our mother's day song is even worse. It's all about measuring a mother and doing that by the fact that she makes cookies, birthday cakes, hugs etc. So if a kid's mother doesn't do those things he or she should measure them as less than? Weird. I think it might be made up, never heard it in the primary song book.

Joni
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Re: Gender Roles in Primary

Post by Joni » 02 May 2014, 09:00

This song was brought to my attention just this past Sunday... for lack of a better word, it makes me stabby! (Sunday was a hard day. For the first time ever, I considered getting up and walking out of Gospel Doctrine.) First of all, I have a BIG problem with false doctrine being taught via song - I'm really not comfortable with treating the FP as revelation/doctrine, and that's what we do when we turn it into a Primary song. Second, I do NOT like the idea that my DAUGHTERS are being taught to cheerfully sing that it's a man's place to preside over them. Ick, ick, ick.

I've been stressing over and over to my husband that he has to choose: EITHER he can preside over me OR we can be equal partners, but not both. His choice to be equal partners rather than the boss is not a message that should be undermined by the songs that are taught in Primary. I preside just as much as he does, and that's something that my kids need to understand.

What's interesting is that our current Primary president is an eminently sensible woman, an adult convert and a divorced single mother of 2 teenage boys. I wonder who 'presides' in her home?!

roobytoos
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Re: Gender Roles in Primary

Post by roobytoos » 05 May 2014, 15:52

I shared my feelings about not liking this song with a ward member. Big mistake. In response she sent me this:

"Gender is important. Here is another quote from LDS.org. "Because Satan “seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself” (2 Nephi 2:27), he and his followers try to lead us away from righteousness. He directs his most strenuous opposition at the most important aspects of Heavenly Father's plan of happiness....He attempts to undermine the family by confusing gender, promoting sexual relations outside of marriage, ridiculing marriage, and discouraging childbearing by married adults who would otherwise raise children in righteousness."

Any ideas on how to respond to her appropriately? I want to have a real discussion with her, but with quotes like this I feel overwhelmed and unable to respond.

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Gender Roles in Primary

Post by Curt Sunshine » 05 May 2014, 16:00

Walk away. It's not worth it, and it won't go anywhere good.

Seriously.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Forgotten_Charity
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Re: Gender Roles in Primary

Post by Forgotten_Charity » 05 May 2014, 18:04

roobytoos wrote:I shared my feelings about not liking this song with a ward member. Big mistake. In response she sent me this:

"Gender is important. Here is another quote from LDS.org. "Because Satan “seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself” (2 Nephi 2:27), he and his followers try to lead us away from righteousness. He directs his most strenuous opposition at the most important aspects of Heavenly Father's plan of happiness....He attempts to undermine the family by confusing gender, promoting sexual relations outside of marriage, ridiculing marriage, and discouraging childbearing by married adults who would otherwise raise children in righteousness."

Any ideas on how to respond to her appropriately? I want to have a real discussion with her, but with quotes like this I feel overwhelmed and unable to respond.
As much as i would love to think so, it just isn't true. That you can calmly and rationally talk to a person in paranoia. It won't work. This is a very subjective subject that historically has no basis in fact. But it's a view long held from Early Christianity and similar things from before. The point is it's far from new. Judaism doesn't even hold that there is a devil as we know it. The Hebrew term means "adversary" which is often used generic term in Hebrew to mean or describe anyone who was an enemy or in an adversarial relationship to the chosen people of god(ha-satan) or evil inclination.

Like wise, you can't talk anyone out of fear through logic. Mass evidence shows this. Peacefully walk away. You know what is right for you. I do find it interesting that fear if a unknown being dies seem to cause an "evil inclination" in and of itself.

This is not to dispute any belief in satan only to know the origins of fear based belief to solidify staying within a boundary of a set belief. Let the evidence of today be a guide. Millions of co-working families from before even Christ time who's gender roles where quite different(it is to say that in some societies long before Christ). As well as people in those societies as in now not bringing the so called society families down. But again, logic won't help. It's fear and paranoia you are trying to fight and it will only get worse confronting it.

roobytoos
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Re: Gender Roles in Primary

Post by roobytoos » 05 May 2014, 18:26

Thank you for the advice. I think it is wise to just walk away. This topic seems to have truly made people defend the status quo. As an interesting observation to this conversation (several people were involved) all of those defending the song/Proclamation to the Family grew up in traditional homes and currently have traditional family structure. All of those that were concerned either grew up in non-traditional settings or are currently living in a non-traditional family. I don't know that it means anything, I just found it interesting.

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On Own Now
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Re: Gender Roles in Primary

Post by On Own Now » 05 May 2014, 19:12

What Ray said... word for word.
- - -
“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.” ― Carl Jung
- - -
"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." ― Romans 14:13
- - -

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Forgotten_Charity
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Re: Gender Roles in Primary

Post by Forgotten_Charity » 05 May 2014, 19:13

roobytoos wrote:Thank you for the advice. I think it is wise to just walk away. This topic seems to have truly made people defend the status quo. As an interesting observation to this conversation (several people were involved) all of those defending the song/Proclamation to the Family grew up in traditional homes and currently have traditional family structure. All of those that were concerned either grew up in non-traditional settings or are currently living in a non-traditional family. I don't know that it means anything, I just found it interesting.
It means that people will defend what they hold true or dear, either out of devotion or ignorance. Nether is a wrong choice, often it isn't even a choice, just what must be done to survive. Like many hunter gather tribes where there is no real hierarchy in family or society. Where is is responsible to do a duty regardless of their age, sex. It existed long before modern times with many tribes(just not the limited tribes of the scriptures). Even then it's not fully supported in the accounts. Likewise people will defend river tradition is the "truth" and the true "tradition" in many cultures and many ways.

Fiddler in the roof is an example, one that many ultra Orthodox Jews often vilify for even questioning tradition.

Roy
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Re: Gender Roles in Primary

Post by Roy » 20 May 2014, 11:07

As an update - we met with the Primary President for a five minute meeting after church on Sunday.

One of the things that we discussed was how the song that we are learning reinforces traditional gender roles. As I continued to explain what I meant by that the PP became relieved. She had thought that I might be suggesting something about Same Sex Marriage. I told her that a good portion of the primary kids probably come from families where the mom might work or even in some cases where the dad does the child rearing. I said that the Proclamation uses qualifying language to recognize that family situations may vary and sharing of duties is appropriate. Unfortunately, the song doesn't make room for any of that.

I recommended that the sharing time person spend some time talking about different family arrangements and how they can be just as acceptable and even more ideal for a particular family.

I reiterated that DW and I are not making any demands - only bringing concerns to her attention.

The PP confirmed that this song is something that is required learning (as opposed to local discretion) but as a working mother herself, she seemed quite agreeable to my suggestions.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

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