Doubt your doubts

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
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Life_Journey_of_Matt
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Re: Doubt your doubts

Post by Life_Journey_of_Matt » 08 Nov 2013, 21:50

It hit me like a ton of bricks tonight how beautifully Elder Uchtdorf's statement:
first doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith
parallels Fowler's stages of faith. Stage 3 really is a "doubt your doubts" stage. Many people, as has been mentioned above, won't need to move past that stage. They'll be perfectly content in stage 3. However, many of us will not be spiritually content in this stage and will move on to the "doubt your faith" stage (stage 4). Does anyone else find this correlation strangely coincidental?
"So oft in theologic wars / The disputants, I ween, / Rail on in utter ignorance / Of what each other mean / And prate about an Elephant / Not one of them has seen." -- from "The Blind Men and the Elephant" by John Godfrey Saxe

"The faith that stands on authority is not faith. The reliance on authority measures the decline of religion, the withdrawal of the soul." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

My ongoing story: http://precariousironrod.com/

peteolcott
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Re: Doubt your doubts

Post by peteolcott » 19 Nov 2013, 07:26

Thoreau wrote:I doubted my doubts and look where it took me. You doubt and dig deeper.
In my opinion this is the big mistake that atheists make.
By refraining from doubting even one's own doubts the error of bias is derived.
True scientific objectivity requires eliminating all errors of reasoning including bias.

Roy
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Re: Doubt your doubts

Post by Roy » 19 Nov 2013, 10:51

peteolcott wrote:
Thoreau wrote:I doubted my doubts and look where it took me. You doubt and dig deeper.
In my opinion this is the big mistake that atheists make.
By refraining from doubting even one's own doubts the error of bias is derived.
True scientific objectivity requires eliminating all errors of reasoning including bias.
I don't disagree with you Pete. I'm just not sure that "true scientific objectivity" is possible or even desirable for me. I live in a world of assumptions. Some or even many of my assumptions are wrong. In the final analysis, I don't think the measure of my life depends on me getting all the right answers.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

peteolcott
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Joined: 14 Nov 2013, 04:46

Re: Doubt your doubts

Post by peteolcott » 19 Nov 2013, 11:06

Roy wrote:
peteolcott wrote:
Thoreau wrote:I doubted my doubts and look where it took me. You doubt and dig deeper.
In my opinion this is the big mistake that atheists make.
By refraining from doubting even one's own doubts the error of bias is derived.
True scientific objectivity requires eliminating all errors of reasoning including bias.
I don't disagree with you Pete. I'm just not sure that "true scientific objectivity" is possible or even desirable for me. I live in a world of assumptions. Some or even many of my assumptions are wrong. In the final analysis, I don't think the measure of my life depends on me getting all the right answers.
You have a good point with that. That is the reason why I keep two distinct concepts separately:
a) Right: Whatever maximizes joy
b) Correct: Consistent with the way things actually are

I may be better to aim for [Right] than to aim for [Correct].

Roy
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Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Doubt your doubts

Post by Roy » 19 Nov 2013, 11:30

peteolcott wrote:You have a good point with that. That is the reason why I keep two distinct concepts separately:
a) Right: Whatever maximizes joy
b) Correct: Consistent with the way things actually are

I may be better to aim for [Right] than to aim for [Correct].
Yeah, I would say that I strive for for what is right and don't worry too much about sweating correctness in spiritual matters. That is just my preference where at this point in my journey.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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Heber13
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Re: Doubt your doubts

Post by Heber13 » 19 Nov 2013, 12:48

Life_Journey_of_Matt wrote:It hit me like a ton of bricks tonight how beautifully Elder Uchtdorf's statement:
first doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith
parallels Fowler's stages of faith. Stage 3 really is a "doubt your doubts" stage. Many people, as has been mentioned above, won't need to move past that stage. They'll be perfectly content in stage 3. However, many of us will not be spiritually content in this stage and will move on to the "doubt your faith" stage (stage 4). Does anyone else find this correlation strangely coincidental?
Matt, I like it! :thumbup:

What's stage 5? Accept your doubts, your beliefs, others' doubts, and others' beliefs?
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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