Monitored and Watched

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
User avatar
PiperAlpha
Posts: 176
Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 05:14

Re: Monitored and Watched

Post by PiperAlpha » 12 Jun 2013, 07:08

It is an oxymoron to participate in a site trying to help people "StayLDS" and call it apostate. Perhaps they were referring to the other sites with more negative tones.

My question: What exactly are we not allowed to say that is critical of leaders? Is there something in the handbook clarifying that, or is that that a vague charge used in witch hunts?

I get frustrated at times with others. What is crossing the line, and why is it bad?

I have been in gospel doctrine class when comments were made by the teacher about Obama ruining our future for our children. No one took his temple recommend away.

The part I don't like about your story is they shredded evidence, and privately apologized when publicly taking you from your position/calling. I think if people have a problem with me, they need to come face to face and open up with their concerns and I will respectfully discuss it with them. Not throw accusations, shred evidence, talk about vague "criticizing leaders" charges, and not own up to exactly what their concern is with me. And in 4 previous confrontations on this subject of posting online and if I am apostacizing, it has always ended just fine after I could push back on them and make them discuss with me on specifics, because the discussion broke down wild accusations with no merit. My bishop and my Stake President ended our talks with me by giving me a hug and saying, "You're a really good man. I love you, brother".

I'm pretty sure Elder Holland was talking about people who work through their unbelief, and they are welcome in this church. So posting here should not be feared, even if those who live in fear because of their immature faith get their panties in a wad about it. Tell the bishop to go work with those people who need help to stop being so preoccupied with monitoring and watching others.

In my experience, they wanted to know if I was specifically targeting the church or it's leaders. When I shared with them I was on a personal journey and am seeking god and truth, and along the way if I say things about the church that I sincerely wonder about, but I am targeting finding answers and peace and love...they backed down. Because they don't fear the honest seeker, and the humble doubter. They fear the aggressive attacker of the things that are sacred to them, and they will fight to protect their sacred things. I get that...I just need to show them I am no enemy of theirs...I just get frustrated by their leadership sometimes and I will voice valid frustrations. But I'm not one to be feared in their midst. I'm harmless.
“As individually and collectively we increase our knowledge, acceptance, and application of gospel principles, we become less dependent on Church programs. Our lives become gospel centered.”
Elder Ronald E. Poelman, General Conference Oct 1984

User avatar
hawkgrrrl
Site Admin
Posts: 3537
Joined: 22 Oct 2008, 16:27

Monitored and Watched

Post by hawkgrrrl » 12 Jun 2013, 07:21

We need to quit rewarding tattlers as a church. Anonymous cowards who sneak to an authority figure with gossips, twisted truths and out-of-context hearsay evidence on the premise of fictitious concern for a fellow member should be seen through immediately. The D&C says if your brother offends you in some way you are obligated to take them aside privately to discuss it first.

Then why do some leaders reward passive-aggressive childishness?

Roy
Posts: 6217
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Monitored and Watched

Post by Roy » 12 Jun 2013, 10:34

hawkgrrrl wrote:We need to quit rewarding tattlers as a church. Anonymous cowards who sneak to an authority figure with gossips, twisted truths and out-of-context hearsay evidence on the premise of fictitious concern for a fellow member should be seen through immediately. The D&C says if your brother offends you in some way you are obligated to take them aside privately to discuss it first.

Then why do some leaders reward passive-aggressive childishness?
I had understood that it was my duty to go to the bishop. I believe this message was originally delivered to me in the context that rather than gossip, I should go to the bishop and if I didn't like what I perceived as the action being taken by the bishop - I should trust the bishop's judgment.

I did exactly that when it came to my attention that the YW leader was having an inappropriate relationship with one of the YM. I told the bishop and thought that my hands were clean. The YW leader later divorced her husband and eventually married the YM. It was a bad situation all the way around and I believe that the bishop (a genuinely great guy) did the best that he could. The point is that I thought that it was my duty to tattle and not concern myself with the outcome.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

Curt Sunshine
Site Admin
Posts: 16851
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: Monitored and Watched

Post by Curt Sunshine » 12 Jun 2013, 10:38

Informing someone about an inappropriate relationship between an adult and a youth is not "tattling". It. Is. A. Responsibility. Of. Adulthood.

Going to someone and complaining about another person's beliefs and charging them with apostasy is tattling. It. Is. Childish.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

User avatar
On Own Now
Posts: 1774
Joined: 18 Jan 2012, 12:45

Re: Monitored and Watched

Post by On Own Now » 12 Jun 2013, 11:34

How to handle an issue with someone else depends on where the impact lies.
- If someone offends you, you take it up with them.
- If someone is struggling with something in their personal life you either leave it alone, or you talk to the person to help, but only if you already have the kind of a relationship that this would not be out of the norm.
- If something that someone is doing or saying affects the church or ward, and the people in the church/ward, I have no problem with someone going to the bishop/SP. If my daughter gets a class lesson about how plural marriage is going to come back someday, so she needs to prepare for the idea of sharing her husband, I'm calling the bishop before the day is out. If I were the bishop, I'd want to know. If a HC gets up in SM and says Obama is the antichrist, I'm going to the SP right away. Sure, I could talk to the HC, but that would likely do no good. If I were the SP, I'd want to know it.

In the specific case kristmace brought up, we have no idea who went to the bishop and why, and quite frankly, I would argue that it doesn't matter. Hell, we come here to the site all the time to complain about things that other people do. The issue that matters is what the Church representative does about it. I'm disturbed, in this case, that kristmace was released and his TR taken away, and I would challenge the bishop about it the validity of that action. In the case that church033 brought up earlier on a separate thread, the SP seemed to handle it in a fair and agreeable way.

Roy
Posts: 6217
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Monitored and Watched

Post by Roy » 12 Jun 2013, 13:06

Ray Degraw wrote:Informing someone about an inappropriate relationship between an adult and a youth is not "tattling". It. Is. A. Responsibility. Of. Adulthood.
That's not what I meant with my story. If I had to do it over again I would probably go to the parents of the YM first and formost and then let them decide how to proceed.

I agree with On Own Now's assesment that "How to handle an issue with someone else depends on where the impact lies."

I don't mean to derail the discussion from Kristmace's situation. I only meant that I, too (in my past life), might have gone to the bishop about something and seen it as my duty.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

User avatar
DevilsAdvocate
Posts: 1392
Joined: 19 Feb 2010, 12:56
Location: Utah

Re: Monitored and Watched

Post by DevilsAdvocate » 12 Jun 2013, 13:35

kristmace wrote:Just need to let everyone know of an unsavoury incident that happened at the weekend...I was released as YMs president and had my TR taken off me. The reasons were criticising church leaders, affiliation with apostate groups and non-compliance of the law of tithing. The evidence for this was a print out of all my comments from here, Reddit and NewOrderMormon forum...I was never talked to before hand about this, and there were no specifics discussed regarding what I had said that was out of line. The evidence had been conveniently shredded...
That's too bad; you definitely didn't do anything to deserve to be treated this way. It's sad to see that there are nosy busybodies like this that think it's their responsibility to worry this much about what other people believe in or not. It reminds me of 1984 where the people were always being watched closely for the first sign of "thoughtcrime." Why aren't the basic interview questions already good enough to decide who can have a temple recommend or not if members feel comfortable answering them? It seems like God could be the judge of who was worthy or not in that case but instead I guess now it's the bishops that get to decide on a whim who isn't agreeing with the Church leadership quite enough for their taste. This kind of reaction doesn't make the Church look very Christian; it looks more like the way the Pharisees acted (Luke 15:2).
"Truth is what works." - William James

Curt Sunshine
Site Admin
Posts: 16851
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: Monitored and Watched

Post by Curt Sunshine » 12 Jun 2013, 16:24

Thanks for the clarification, Roy.

Fwiw, I in a situation you describe, I would go to the cops first, the parents of the youth second and the Bishop last - telling the parents and the Bishop that I had gone to the cops first. "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" is applicable here.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

User avatar
AngryMormon
Posts: 156
Joined: 04 Oct 2012, 18:54
Location: Seattle

Re: Monitored and Watched

Post by AngryMormon » 12 Jun 2013, 17:01

I am embarrassed to say this, but I live in fear that what happened to kristmace could happen to me. In a way I feel like I handed over my Constitutional freedom and balls when I was baptized.

Best of luck kristmace to you and your family. Stay strong! This ordeal makes the church look bad, not you!

Personally, I don't believe the part about the people being concerned for you. Why not come talk to you directly? These people wanted to start drama. The tattlers escalated the situation and added fuel to the fire. You seem very Christlike in your attitude towards them.

Doesn't part of you want to find out who they are and then retaliate harshly? I'm sure it would be easy to find out who they are in your ward if you ask around!

Curt Sunshine
Site Admin
Posts: 16851
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: Monitored and Watched

Post by Curt Sunshine » 12 Jun 2013, 21:18

No need to make a bad situation worse. Show everyone you still are a caring, loving person. It's not easy, but it's the best response possible.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Post Reply