Monitored and Watched

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
kristmace
Posts: 98
Joined: 27 Jan 2013, 16:32
Location: UK

Monitored and Watched

Post by kristmace » 11 Jun 2013, 14:13

Just need to let everyone know of an unsavoury incident that happened at the weekend.

I was released as YMs president and had my TR taken off me. The reasons were criticising church leaders, affiliation with apostate groups and non-compliance of the law of tithing. The evidence for this was a print out of all my comments from here, Reddit and NewOrderMormon forum.

I've been very candid on these forums about my faith struggles, and have openly discussed using part of my tithing for charitible donations.

I was never talked to before hand about this, and there were no specifics discussed regarding what I had said that was out of line. The evidence had been conveniently shredded.

I was angry at the time, but Bishop has been over today and in the course of the discussion he apologised twice for the way it was handled. I trust his intentions were good and I accept his apology over the messy way it was done. I asked him in the future to see me anytime he ever heard or read anything that was attributed to me if he felt it needed discussing.

If one of the snoopers is reading this, I ask that they come and see me if they have an issue with something I've written. This forum is a safe place for me to work through my issues with like minded people and attempt to stay in the church. If I hadn't found this forum earlier in the year I can almost guarantee I would be less active right now. It is incredibly important to me that I have a safe haven to discuss my issues with like minded and supportive people. Please don't deny me this.
Last edited by kristmace on 11 Jun 2013, 14:55, edited 1 time in total.

wanderer
Posts: 28
Joined: 28 May 2013, 16:37

Re: Monitored and Watched

Post by wanderer » 11 Jun 2013, 14:32

Good job on holding it together. It would be tough not to walk away at that point.

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2

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On Own Now
Posts: 1774
Joined: 18 Jan 2012, 12:45

Re: Monitored and Watched

Post by On Own Now » 11 Jun 2013, 14:36

kristmace,

I'm sure you already know, but you have friends here. As you said, this site does much to moderate our thinking, because we are able to work through issues with others in similar predicaments.

I would argue the points of "affiliating with apostate groups" because I don't think that we are an apostate group. That implies working to destroy the Church, and I can't see how this group could be in that line... I don't know about other sites or your blog, but I haven't heard anything from you on this site that comes close to "apostate".

I would also argue with the tithing thing... after all, according to the FP, "every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly" (FP Letter, 1970). I am not aware of any minimum amount. I think a person contributing zero could make the argument that they are paying a full tithe, so long as they truly feel that they have no "income" to pay on.

Criticizing Church leaders might be true, but I'd want an explanation about where the line exists and how, specifically, I crossed the line. I've criticized Church leaders in general, but I'm not sure I've criticized any one of them specifically. I have criticized things that they have said, but I've never called for them to be removed (that I'm aware of).

Anyway, just know that I'm thinking of you and hoping for a positive outcome. This might be a great chance to voice some concerns.

Finally, let me say, I'm OK with being monitored and watched. I hope we are. I'd love for some of the Church leaders to listen in on some of the threads here. Might give them some insight that they don't normally see.

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mackay11
Posts: 2045
Joined: 01 Nov 2012, 18:01

Monitored and Watched

Post by mackay11 » 11 Jun 2013, 14:51

I'm really sorry to hear that mate. It's a real shame that sometimes people get so hung up on handbook that they forget people.

Hang in there. Hope you're able to maintain the positives in your family relationships.

church0333
Posts: 589
Joined: 26 Aug 2012, 17:41
Location: Springfield OR

Re: Monitored and Watched

Post by church0333 » 11 Jun 2013, 14:59

Do you have any idea you gave all this information to your Bishop? I know that I would be very mad about this but maybe at the same time a little relieved. If this site is an apostate site then I know that I am in trouble. I also post some on NOM but they are a little bit more negative than I feel right now but the are times or topics that seem it would be better to post there than here. I hope for everyone sake that is was just some one in your ward that figured out who you were and not some church headquarter search and destroy type of committee. I agree in that I am so grateful for this site.

kristmace
Posts: 98
Joined: 27 Jan 2013, 16:32
Location: UK

Re: Monitored and Watched

Post by kristmace » 11 Jun 2013, 15:08

I'm pretty sure it's just someone in the ward with an agenda. One of the things that really irked is the fact that if you print out all my comments, they are taken completely out of context of the discussion. Also, Bishop really has no idea what this site and NOM are really about.
The most apostate group I post in is the ExMormon subreddit. Again, this needs qualifying as it is extremely different to any other Exmo groups in my opinion. The main LDS reddit became a place only for narrow views so actually the ExMo group is populated by all sorts of people, and the discussions of things like the historical issues are full of well thought out, balanced comments from a reasonable range of views.
Last edited by kristmace on 12 Jun 2013, 02:24, edited 2 times in total.

church0333
Posts: 589
Joined: 26 Aug 2012, 17:41
Location: Springfield OR

Re: Monitored and Watched

Post by church0333 » 11 Jun 2013, 15:28

I am just so sorry to hear that. At least it was local and not from SLC. If your bishop apologized for the way it was handled then why did he do it that way? Do you think that you should have been released and your TR taken? What does he want you to do next?

Curt Sunshine
Site Admin
Posts: 16851
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: Monitored and Watched

Post by Curt Sunshine » 11 Jun 2013, 20:55

I hope for everyone sake that is was just some one in your ward that figured out who you were and not some church headquarter search and destroy type of committee.


It's not. I have been an admin and commenter for years here, and I use my real name. I talk openly about my involvement here. I am active, faithful and fully temple worthy. I've never been approached negatively about it.

This is an overzealous member, and I am extremely sorry it happened. It's also why I have NO problem with people who post anonymously and reveal no personal information.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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SilentDawning
Posts: 7348
Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55

Re: Monitored and Watched

Post by SilentDawning » 11 Jun 2013, 21:13

We were talking about this monitoring and potential punishing in another thread. I do feel there are strong risks with posting here for this reason. And even if an overzealous person did figure out KM's identity, and printed off their posts, it went further than that. A leader who took away the TR and released the person from their calling was a church leader who used the information posted here for this purpose. If they can do that, then what would stop them from actively trying to piece together the identifies of others and actively "prosecute"?

I'm glad you posted this because now we have two people who have experienced this -- cWald and KM. It's nice that the leader apologized for the way it was handled. But are you still without a TR? Has anything changed since you were reprimanded?

I think they are within their rights to take away the TR due to non-payment of tithing, however, you do have a year to pay it all. To take it away mid-year would seem a bit heavy-handed, unless you openly said you had no intention of paying it.

This really is unsavory.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

kristmace
Posts: 98
Joined: 27 Jan 2013, 16:32
Location: UK

Re: Monitored and Watched

Post by kristmace » 12 Jun 2013, 02:29

I'm still without a TR.

I think the apostate groups accusation is without foundation.

The criticising church leaders one is possibly a fair one, although no specific details have been discussed with me about what I said, where, when and in what context.

The Tithing issues is a fair one too, although I've only been splitting it between the church and other charities for about 8 weeks, and there has been no discussion about this to try and understand my perspective - just a challenge to change and 'pay it in full' (what ever that actually means!).

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