How do you stay when you don't believe?

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
Doubter
Posts: 7
Joined: 04 May 2021, 08:54

How do you stay when you don't believe?

Post by Doubter »

I have been a member since 1981 but I would be a non member if I could, I stay for my wife who is a TBM . I haven't believed in a long time (she knows this) I am however a Biblical Christian . My question is how do you sit through some meetings or lessons when you don't believe a word that is being said , I'm finding this more and more difficult as time goes on .
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DarkJedi
Posts: 8050
Joined: 24 Aug 2013, 20:53

Re: How do you stay when you don't believe?

Post by DarkJedi »

Great question and one many of us struggle with. I think COVID gave us all a nice break but it looks like that break is ending for most of us and it's back to the same old same old. :|

I am very much in the same boat as you and have been. I also joined in 1981 and don't believe many of the truth claims. I do believe in Jesus Christ and other core elements of His Gospel as taught by the church (and other churches).

I have struggled for years with sitting through meetings where I disagree with what's being said. I can only say what seems to be working for me and much of this comes from pre-COVID experience. Just to be totally up front, I am currently not attending because I do not believe my ward has my safety in mind as far as mask policy is concerned. There's a little story that I won't bore you with, but I was attending SM until a couple weeks ago. I have not attended SS/PH since pre-COVID and I think COVID might have given me enough of a break from that that I may never return to those meetings.

All of that said, it has been my tablet and phone that have helped me keep my sanity. I simply tune out and tune in to my tablet or phone. Most often I am looking at church or religious related stuff (of my choosing, of course) but once in a while I admit to just looking at news or something entertaining. I often just read scriptures (usually NT and most often the gospels), sometimes favorite GC talks, sometimes researching a topic that interests me, and sometimes "writing" my own Christ centered talk in my head. This works for me, your mileage may vary. I'm sure others have other coping mechanisms and I look forward to reading them.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Minyan Man
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Joined: 15 Sep 2011, 13:40

Re: How do you stay when you don't believe?

Post by Minyan Man »

I used to give my opinions & beliefs during SS or PH with the idea that we need opposing views & ideas as a balance to
what was being presented. Then I realized that it made some members very uncomfortable. So, I don't contribute anymore
unless someone asks me a question, then I keep my answer in line with the views of the teacher. My answer is very short &
sweet. All other times that I am left on my own, I try to focus on the basics of the gospel. Jesus Christ, parables, sermon on
the mount, etc. Or, I sit with members of my ward that are liberal in their views & are open to have a expression of ideas
where no one is sensitive or offended in the process.

When in doubt, I'm quiet & study on my own. Or, get up & go into the hallway or out to the car.
Roy
Posts: 7183
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: How do you stay when you don't believe?

Post by Roy »

It is unfortunate that our model seems to revolve around the church being so true that you should do almost anything and make any sacrifice to be worthy to attain the promised blessings (most of which are promised for after death).
However, that does not mean that there are not admirable things to observe in the faith and community once you strip away belief in the truth claims.

One way to cope is to put on your anthropological hat. Pretend that the Mormons are a lost culture and that you are an imbedded researcher. Why does the organization and individual operate the way that they do? How do they build community and relationships? What do they value? What are the traditions they hold dear? How do they pass on the faith/culture to the next generation? What sorts of forces are working against the community being successful going forward? How is the organization and its members reacting? Are some of the reactions based upon fear? Why or Why not?

for example, when someone says, "I know the church is true" they are in effect saying that the church body and the faith mean so very much to that person and they want to express that in the socially acceptable form. This in turn creates bonds of friendship, community, and familiarity. It is a well worn ritual.

All cultures have their downsides and their margins. This is particularly frustrating and hard when you feel like you are among the groups being marginalized. The anthropologist method can be helpful in taking the personal out of the equation. The culture is neither good nor bad - but has elements of both, just like all cultures.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
Old-Timer
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Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: How do you stay when you don't believe?

Post by Old-Timer »

I know how to speak fluent Mormonese and offer my heterodox views in that faithful language. I do so quietly and without an argumentative tone.

I also wouldn't say I don't believe but rather that I believe differently - and I believe the LDS Church is just as "true and living" as any other Christian denomination. It is a fine distinction, but it is an important one to me.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Roy
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Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: How do you stay when you don't believe?

Post by Roy »

Yesterday for home-church my 13 yr old son had some questions. The topic was about Why bad things happen to good people. It was posited that God is All loving and All powerful so why does evil and suffering exist. My wife asked me to talk with him when I got home from work.
Old-Timer wrote: 26 Sep 2021, 22:44 I also wouldn't say I don't believe but rather that I believe differently
I told him that I believe from experiences I have had that our heavenly parents know us intimately and love us completely. They are cheering us on in everything that we do. I further believe that the relationships and bonds that we form in this life continue on in the next life. I believe that we will be together forever.

As for the all-powerful part. Why does God have to be all powerful? We had lots of discussion about the bible and its authors and their worldview and why they would want to "prove" the superiority of their god through tales of miracles that he had performed. The story of Elijah and the priests of Baal was a good example. The story of Moses turning his staff into a snake that consumed the staffs/snakes of the pharaoh's priests was another good example. I know that some other people need to believe strongly in regular miracles in order to feel more secure in their faith. That is fine and I understand why this belief is helpful for them, it just hasn't been my experience and my belief is a little different.
Old-Timer wrote: 26 Sep 2021, 22:44 I believe the LDS Church is just as "true and living" as any other Christian denomination.
We then had a discussion about True vs. False churches. My son was saying that if one church was true then other churches must be false. We had a good discussion about a friend of ours that is a Methodist youth pastor. He studies his bible, and prays, and serves in his community. He feels God's love and direction in his life. God does not appear to be telling him to leave his church and to join ours. I believe that our heavenly parents reach out to us through all/most churches, and even that they might reach out to us without any organized church at all. I believe that all/most churches are reflections of an absolute truth. This will also mean that my personal beliefs are also not absolute truth but just my perception of that truth and things that add purpose and meaning to my life. I find it humbling to consider that "my truth" does not need to be The Truth for everyone else.

At the end I reiterated that I believe that our heavenly parents know us and love us completely AND that our family relationships continue on after death. Those two beliefs are enough for me.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
Roy
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Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: How do you stay when you don't believe?

Post by Roy »

Doubter wrote: 21 Sep 2021, 09:25 I haven't believed in a long time (she knows this) I am however a Biblical Christian
Perhaps to summarize my response, you clearly do believe. You just believe differently. When surrounded by dogma that I do not personally believe, I find it helpful to look for value, usefulness, and goodness.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
kyle315
Posts: 3
Joined: 30 Aug 2021, 13:12

Re: How do you stay when you don't believe?

Post by kyle315 »

Doubter wrote: 21 Sep 2021, 09:25 My question is how do you sit through some meetings or lessons when you don't believe a word that is being said , I'm finding this more and more difficult as time goes on .
Looking forward to more words of wisdom (pardon the pun) regarding this aspect of your question. I struggle mightily with this, every time I go.
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Heber13
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Joined: 22 Apr 2009, 16:37
Location: In the Middle

Re: How do you stay when you don't believe?

Post by Heber13 »

If I can respect my own beliefs, after sincerely searching for answers and coming up with a non-traditional view, then I have to adjust my expectations at church and with those at church at a different place than I am at.

I have had to let go of expecting others to understand my experience and my view and validate it.

I have to have the personal viewpoint, and have stage 5 conjunctive faith (see Fowlers stages) to allow others to say and do what they want, and allow myself to worship how and what I may.

Symbolism and mystical references can be broad meaning enough to allow variation in staying in the church and having different views of truth, and not minimize ours we have sincerely worked to find from our point of view.

Maybe what I'm trying to say is....even if others see it differently (like they see it literal and you don't) you don't need to think their view is greater than yours. And you don't need their validation. You just be you, and be part of the community your way.

It's a transition to being ok with that. I think you still find value in hearing and learning from others, and check your views and continue to grow.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
Roy
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Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: How do you stay when you don't believe?

Post by Roy »

It also might be important to add that some days may be harder than others.

Part of this may be you and the things that are happening in your life. Maybe you are tired, or hungry, or stressed and are just not in a good place mentally or emotionally to deploy effective coping strategies.

Another part could be the lesson. For me, some of the worst lessons are about the doubter, inactive, or becoming offended. It feels to me like they are calling me out and telling me that I do not belong. That is hard.

I used to make somewhat contrarian comments in SS. I felt like I was helping to expand the lesson material and get people to think just a little more broadly. Sometimes it worked fine. A few times, my answer was refuted or rejected in front of the class. The pain of being publicly rebuked like that was not worth the more minor successes. I still try to contribute in class, but now I try hard to find something that I can honestly answer from a more believing point of view.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
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