Jeffrey Holland's recent address to faculty and staff at BYU

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nibbler
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Re: Jeffrey Holland's recent address to faculty and staff at BYU

Post by nibbler »

My comment was in reference to the video of the young man that poured water on the rainbow chalk and said, "------- go to hell."

The quote about condemning the behavior and language was from the official BYU twitter and was in response to that video going viral.

After the video went viral the community came together to chalk up that area.
support.jpg
support.jpg (101.27 KiB) Viewed 4909 times


But by the next morning.
oppose.jpg
oppose.jpg (127.72 KiB) Viewed 4909 times
Which makes me wonder whether BYU officials see any problem whatsoever with the act of washing away messages of support for the LGBT+ community.

This is having a Streisand effect. The act of removing the messages of support is causing more people to come out with messages of support.

I am making a large assumption that the second removal of messages of support was carried out/ordered by officials. The entire area was scrubbed. If that is the case, it's troubling that the university still lacks the awareness to recognize the message they're sending. That leads me to believe that they really don't condemn the behavior, they engaged in it themselves. I'm sure they wouldn't use the language that the young man used, they've found more socially acceptable speech to mask the same sentiment.

So the question is, what exactly did they condemn?
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Re: Jeffrey Holland's recent address to faculty and staff at BYU

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As it turns out, there may be a standing policy or precedent on washing chalk art off sidewalks that predates all this. Still, not a good look. They should probably pump the brakes and evaluate whether policy overrides people in this instance.
I kept a diary right after I was born. Day 1: Tired from the move. Day 2: Everyone thinks I'm an idiot.
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Re: Jeffrey Holland's recent address to faculty and staff at BYU

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For those unfamiliar with BYU, the pictures above at the bottom of the stairway are of a public street on the south side of campus. The stairway itself is unquestionably BYU property, the sidewalk is public. There are many off campus housing complexes near this area where most off campus students live and the stairway is how most of those students access campus. In other words, it is a high visibility and high traffic area (foot and vehicle). I agree with Nibbler, it appears likely BYU erased those messages. I asked my current BYU student son about it and he said there are routinely messages there on a variety of subjects but that they are not necessarily cleaned off daily or "during the night." My take on it again is that BYU sees this as an embarrassment over something that has blown up bigger than expected and wanted. This could especially be the case as the issue has been brought to light as BYU may potentially be invited to join the Big 12 conference for sports and BYU/LDS LGBTQ policies will likely be a discussion topic were that to happen - and may be the reason it doesn't happen.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Re: Jeffrey Holland's recent address to faculty and staff at BYU

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hawkgrrrl wrote: 25 Aug 2021, 12:01
individual license over institutional dignity
How about individual DIGNITY over institutional LICENSE, because that's what we are really talking about here.

As to the idea that the brethren have wept over this issue, hmmm. I have no doubt whatsoever that they are all really upset at being called bigots and homophobes and that the loss of their power is triggering an emotional response for them. Poor poor them. Crocodile tears, I say. I am not buying it at all, and I suspect none of the parents of LGBT kids are buying it either. When your child is suicidal because of the teachings they hear at Church, afraid to come out because they are convinced they will be kicked out and ostracized, and feeling unsafe because their BYU-I roommates are openly joking about doing violence to gay kids, then you have cause to weep about these issues. When you double down on hate speech, invoke violence among your followers with metaphors of muskets, and state openly your willingness to lose university accreditation rather than back down, rendering your students' and professors' investments worthless, you aren't the victim here.
Yes. This.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
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Re: Jeffrey Holland's recent address to faculty and staff at BYU

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nibbler wrote: 30 Aug 2021, 07:05 As it turns out, there may be a standing policy or precedent on washing chalk art off sidewalks that predates all this. Still, not a good look. They should probably pump the brakes and evaluate whether policy overrides people in this instance.
I wonder if someone used chalk to write "Jesus saves" and "we love BYU leaders" and see how long that chalk stays on the sidewalk.

Church leaders and BYU leaders are just not ready to admit they need to adopt a change. So these will continue. I am glad people are speaking out about it and not ignoring it. If they aren't going to change and open up to accept individuals over policy, but feel the need to double down on policy to protect their beliefs, then to protests should continue regardless of whether leaders are weeping over it or not...change needs to happen and it will eventually. It is sad it is taking too long. But I think change will come because right is right. Bigotry and hatred come out of wrong or outdated policy, and eventually become untenable.

Sometimes clinging to faith in the conservative rules and teachings of the past blind leaders from the courage to love as needed in the present or future.

I hope for change. I hope leaders can help young people know how to be better and let go of hate they don't understand.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
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DarkJedi
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Re: Jeffrey Holland's recent address to faculty and staff at BYU

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Heber13 wrote: 04 Sep 2021, 11:08
nibbler wrote: 30 Aug 2021, 07:05 As it turns out, there may be a standing policy or precedent on washing chalk art off sidewalks that predates all this. Still, not a good look. They should probably pump the brakes and evaluate whether policy overrides people in this instance.
I wonder if someone used chalk to write "Jesus saves" and "we love BYU leaders" and see how long that chalk stays on the sidewalk.
Yes, I'd wager if the chalk drawings said "Go Elder Holland!" they would have lasted longer.
Church leaders and BYU leaders are just not ready to admit they need to adopt a change. So these will continue. I am glad people are speaking out about it and not ignoring it. If they aren't going to change and open up to accept individuals over policy, but feel the need to double down on policy to protect their beliefs, then to protests should continue regardless of whether leaders are weeping over it or not...change needs to happen and it will eventually. It is sad it is taking too long. But I think change will come because right is right. Bigotry and hatred come out of wrong or outdated policy, and eventually become untenable.

Sometimes clinging to faith in the conservative rules and teachings of the past blind leaders from the courage to love as needed in the present or future.

I hope for change. I hope leaders can help young people know how to be better and let go of hate they don't understand.
While at the same time these same leaders and members of the Old Guard wring their hands and wonder why 40-50% of returned missionaries are inactive after 3 years and why so many teens don't make it to 18 to even get that far.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Re: Jeffrey Holland's recent address to faculty and staff at BYU

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DarkJedi wrote: 04 Sep 2021, 12:36 While at the same time these same leaders and members of the Old Guard wring their hands and wonder why 40-50% of returned missionaries are inactive after 3 years and why so many teens don't make it to 18 to even get that far.
I'm sure it's because they weren't being good enough at participating in some church program or other.

Studies show that kids that graduate from seminary have a higher percentage of staying active and marrying in the temple. Better start kids on seminary in middle school.

(sarcastic post is sarcastic)
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Re: Jeffrey Holland's recent address to faculty and staff at BYU

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DarkJedi wrote: 04 Sep 2021, 12:36 While at the same time these same leaders and members of the Old Guard wring their hands and wonder why 40-50% of returned missionaries are inactive after 3 years and why so many teens don't make it to 18 to even get that far.
wow. Is it that high now? 40-50%?

Hm.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
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Re: Jeffrey Holland's recent address to faculty and staff at BYU

Post by Heber13 »

When you love someone, you love the person as they are, and not as you'd like them to be.

-Leo Tolstoy
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
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DarkJedi
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Re: Jeffrey Holland's recent address to faculty and staff at BYU

Post by DarkJedi »

Heber13 wrote: 04 Sep 2021, 19:47
DarkJedi wrote: 04 Sep 2021, 12:36 While at the same time these same leaders and members of the Old Guard wring their hands and wonder why 40-50% of returned missionaries are inactive after 3 years and why so many teens don't make it to 18 to even get that far.
wow. Is it that high now? 40-50%?

Hm.
Admittedly, stats are hard to find and if the church actually knows they're not saying (no surprise there). The Next Mormons Survey found that about 30% of Millennials are "active." That study also found that about a third of Millennial missionaries returned early, and about a third of those are not active. So 40-50% may be high, but it doesn't appear 30% would be - still significant. I brought that up partly because of a previous unkind statement I had heard from JRH regarding returned missionaries who go inactive/leave the church (this via my son whose mission was visited by JRH).

Speaking of sons, anecdotally the one-third stat more or less fits. Of the three, one (married) does not attend church or wear garments but does have some belief. Another (married) attends irregularly, does not have a calling by his request, and does not pay tithing. The third (unmarried, student at BYU) also attends irregularly and lies to keep his ecclesiastical endorsement (apparently not unusual by the way). They each have issues with the church, but not necessarily the gospel. The non-tithe payer, for example, has issues that the church requires the very poor to pay tithing that they can't afford to pay while having a $100 billion investment account. The BYU student has concerns with treatment of LGBTQ+ and other social issues (including the ever present judgementalism).
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction
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