Light of Christ and faith in Christ.

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Nacho
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Light of Christ and faith in Christ.

Post by Nacho »

Hello to anyone and everyone who reads this message. I saw this question on another message board and would like to share my response while also asking for your response.

The question is:
When an atheist acts upon the light of Christ within them and obeys a commandment of God, is he/she unknowingly exercising faith in Christ?

Here is my response:
I believe so, yes. I believe Christ through the light of Christ gives us our good and true ideas, also helping us to discern between good vs evil and false vs true ideas. Also referred to as conscience, which we can either wrestle with, or simply accept, or reject. So I would say that if an atheist gets a good idea, he is getting it through the light of Christ or his conscience through Christ, and then if in response he chooses to accept what Christ through that light shows him is right, even if he doesn’t know other people consider that to be a commandment of God, and even though he doesn’t know or accept who or what God or Christ is (which I suppose is why he is called an atheist), he will still be accepting that light with faith that the light has shown him what is right. The light of Christ is still the light of Christ even if someone doesn’t know what it is called or who it comes from. And the light simply lights or shows the way which is right, without force or compulsion to accept what is right.

I believe we and others often exercise faith from God without knowing that faith has come from God. I believe faith is a term for an assurance that anyone can give to assure others of what they think and feel regarding an issue, so that while not all faith is from God, God can certainly assure others of what he thinks and knows and feels and wants us to think and do. Similar maybe to how I am now sharing my faith regarding what I think and feel on this issue while you (the reader) can choose to either accept or reject my message.
Roy
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Re: Light of Christ and faith in Christ.

Post by Roy »

Sorry for the delayed response. I honestly had not seen this post until now.

I would like to take the discussion in a slightly different direction.
“And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.” (D&C 130:20–21.)
My understanding of this passage is that when we understand and follow the laws then we can benefit. When we follow the laws of electricity we can light the darkness. When we follow the laws of aerodynamics we can fly like the birds. Atheists follow these laws and benefit. It could be said that atheists believe in and have faith in these laws.

We believe that Christ is the law giver.

Conversely, I believe that someone that might refuse to follow such laws and depends instead upon their faith in Christ to save/protect them will not benefit.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
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DarkJedi
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Re: Light of Christ and faith in Christ.

Post by DarkJedi »

I also don't know how I missed this. :problem:

I agree that when we do anything "good" we are following God, purposely or not. I know many good Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and atheists who do good things all the time. Good is good. One view of this is that doing good is repenting (if repenting means changing and turning toward God, and it does) so doing good brings us closer to God regardless of whether that was our intent. I think that couples with what Roy said. Murderers are still blessed for all the other commandments they do/did keep.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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AmyJ
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Re: Light of Christ and faith in Christ.

Post by AmyJ »

Nacho wrote: 24 Jun 2021, 15:40 Hello to anyone and everyone who reads this message. I saw this question on another message board and would like to share my response while also asking for your response.

The question is:
When an atheist acts upon the light of Christ within them and obeys a commandment of God, is he/she unknowingly exercising faith in Christ?
I think the crux of the question is in the perception of the outsider who is the Christian and is painting the picture of the "faithful atheist".
  • The Christian Outsider wants to see the Atheist credited with following the Light of Christ so that they return to fold and reduce Cognitive Dissonance, and validate the Christian Outsider's narrative.
  • The Atheist doesn't make the same connections because a question of "Exercising Faith in Christ" is a side issue under the umbrella of "What Do I Believe About God and Jesus Christ". An Atheist is doing good because it is the "humane" action or ethically most viable action for them personally - and is by definition outside of God's scope. To the Christian Outsider, this is incomprehensible on quite a few levels - one of the most obvious ones is that a core tenet of being Christian is Following Someone (Jesus Christ). For Atheists/Agnostics, the core value is not blindly following God and figuring out who/what to follow and under what circumstances.
I ran into this a lot actually with my mother. We would talk about things and she would attribute my ability to teach others or connect with others as "Feeling the Spirit" and "Having the Light of Christ". I got where she was coming from (Silent Dawning's posts on Teaching with the Spirit helped bridge the gaps for me), but I was not willing to commit to that as my motivation or driving force. In describing my actions, I refused to say that those actions were inspired by the "Light of Christ", because I don't know about that and it doesn't enter my equation-planning for how I decide to do things. I couldn't say it wasn't - which made her feel better - but I couldn't make the Cognitive Dissonance go away by agreeing with her.
Old-Timer
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Re: Light of Christ and faith in Christ.

Post by Old-Timer »

Humans have different words for the same things. It is part of being human and having varying languages and cultures.

I respect highly the question and the attempt to frame universal availability to access God and act righteously within one's own tradition, but I would never tell someone who is not Christian that they are following the light of Christ or exercising faith in Christ whenever they do good. Ironically, perhaps, I would be even more vigilant about that with religious/faithful people in non-Christian religions than I would with atheists - since most of my atheist friends don't care all that much about such distinctions, while my non-Christian, religious friends care a lot. (Think of Jews who were highly offended by the idea of their ancestors being baptized in the temple, while most atheists simply would shrug or laugh.)

As to an orthodox response, yes, that is how it could (and I believe should) be framed in a standard LDS framework. If one's conscience is seen as the light of Christ, then all the good we do is because of that light.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Roy
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Re: Light of Christ and faith in Christ.

Post by Roy »

AmyJ wrote: 03 Aug 2021, 06:16 I ran into this a lot actually with my mother. We would talk about things and she would attribute my ability to teach others or connect with others as "Feeling the Spirit" and "Having the Light of Christ". I got where she was coming from (Silent Dawning's posts on Teaching with the Spirit helped bridge the gaps for me), but I was not willing to commit to that as my motivation or driving force. In describing my actions, I refused to say that those actions were inspired by the "Light of Christ", because I don't know about that and it doesn't enter my equation-planning for how I decide to do things. I couldn't say it wasn't - which made her feel better - but I couldn't make the Cognitive Dissonance go away by agreeing with her.
Right. You know that she is complimenting you from her frame of reference even if it does come off somewhat odd.

In my experience, having someone say the opposite (that you have lost the light of Christ or that the spirit has withdrawn from you) can be particularly galling because there is no defense.

Person A: It's so sad to see you struggle as the light of Christ withdraws from you.
Person B: Actually, I really don't feel like I am struggling. I'm doing really well! Thanks for asking.
Person C: That's exactly what someone without the light of Christ would say.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
AmyJ
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Joined: 27 Jul 2017, 05:50

Re: Light of Christ and faith in Christ.

Post by AmyJ »

Roy wrote: 04 Aug 2021, 14:14 Right. You know that she is complimenting you from her frame of reference even if it does come off somewhat odd.
Yes, it is a compliment, but it's also a bid to return to a previous state of belief.

If she can convince me that I have the Light of Christ or recognize the Spirit, then my faith transition will be over:)
Roy wrote: 04 Aug 2021, 14:14 In my experience, having someone say the opposite (that you have lost the light of Christ or that the spirit has withdrawn from you) can be particularly galling because there is no defense.

Person A: It's so sad to see you struggle as the light of Christ withdraws from you.
Person B: Actually, I really don't feel like I am struggling. I'm doing really well! Thanks for asking.
Person C: That's exactly what someone without the light of Christ would say.
That wouldn't bother me as much actually - because they are more or less expecting me to be "heathen" - which is a more accurate expectation right now.

I would probably shrug and say that we are all here to struggle as part of being human and see if there is anything I could do to help the others:)

But then, one of the things that I have internalized to a degree is that in a faith community, I am expecting others to shame and attempt to disrespect me for changing - and that it requires my consent for that to get internalized. This is an application of the paraphrasing of the Eleanor Roosevelt quote.
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nibbler
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Re: Light of Christ and faith in Christ.

Post by nibbler »

Old-Timer said what I'd like to have said but lack the finesse to say.

In some of the examples mentioned in this thread it sounds like a person attempting to validate their own beliefs through assigning motives to the behaviors of others.

In that light, the question becomes why is it important for me to believe that someone else is exercising faith by following the light of Christ, even when they don't realize it? To convert? To shore up my own beliefs? The possibilities are endless, but I think it has more to do with the person assigning motives than the person they're assigning motives to.
I kept a diary right after I was born. Day 1: Tired from the move. Day 2: Everyone thinks I'm an idiot.
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Arrakeen
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Re: Light of Christ and faith in Christ.

Post by Arrakeen »

I kind of see it related to the question of is something good because God does it, or is God good because he does good things?

I would say good exists independent of Christ, and “faith in Christ” would be like following him down the path of good, knowing it is a good path because they trust he knows where he’s going. But it’s entirely possible for someone to walk down the path on their own. They may have other reasons for choosing that path, or they may have some other trusted figure to follow. In the end, they all end up in the same place. So while it may not fit with any orthodox view, I would say faith in Christ is not the only way towards good. But I don’t believe in God currently so I guess I’m technically atheist. I wouldn’t view myself as having faith in Christ.
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