I am slowly becoming depressed about attending church...

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nibbler
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Re: I am slowly becoming depressed about attending church...

Post by nibbler » 15 Apr 2022, 11:40

AmyJ wrote:
15 Apr 2022, 09:22
From women I know who are trying to do this, who actually took President Eyring seriously, I hear snippets of "I am trying to run Come Follow Me and have spiritual experiences - and my husband checks out before it even starts". What their verbal language says at the time is "I am defeated before I start, I am not good enough for this, and I am not being listened to."
I'm guilty of that.

I don't have much interest in the Come Follow Me materials. While I have interest in scripture, I don't have much interest in reading as a family and having formal discussions.

What you describe feels like many church programs. Are they really organic things people want to do, or is it more of an obligation?. Things we do just so we can tell ourselves (and others) that we've done them. Don't forget the part where we feel bad for not meeting an obligation that we didn't have interest in to begin with.

Come Follow Me wouldn't be so bad if it didn't have the manual. The manual has more of a focus on teaching people to become a better member of the church than it does of having a wider focus of teaching people to become a better person. There's lots of overlap in that but there is a difference.
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DarkJedi
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Re: I am slowly becoming depressed about attending church...

Post by DarkJedi » 15 Apr 2022, 13:10

nibbler wrote:
15 Apr 2022, 11:40
Come Follow Me wouldn't be so bad if it didn't have the manual. The manual has more of a focus on teaching people to become a better member of the church than it does of having a wider focus of teaching people to become a better person. There's lots of overlap in that but there is a difference.
I agree. I'm fine with suggested reading for the week and this is what everybody is reading so we could have a discussion about that. But the manual is more about pushing the church narrative and pushing the understanding you're supposed to get from the reading. I will go so far as to say the manual is more about teaching people to be more obedient church members as opposed to teaching people to be better followers of Jesus Christ/Christians. A bit ironic. :eh:

Being completely open here, my wife and I do not read scriptures together or generally have scripture discussion, although I do occasionally have discussions with my adult children. I have in the past "kept up" with the suggested weekly readings but do not currently do so, choosing instead to read what I want to read (since I'm not going to church at all, much less second hour). And I do not use the manual at all.
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AmyJ
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Re: I am slowly becoming depressed about attending church...

Post by AmyJ » 15 Apr 2022, 13:22

nibbler wrote:
15 Apr 2022, 11:40
I'm guilty of that.
While I have interest in scripture, I don't have much interest in reading as a family and having formal discussions.
I managed to ditch the manual, and a lot of "scripture" too. Actually, a stabilizing factor for me was changing how I defined "scripture".

If "scripture" was something put into form (originally written down) that inspired me, well that brought "Lord of the Rings" back onto the scriptural menu and made Brene Brown a "prophetess" or at least a really wise sage.

As for formal discussions, my family has lots of conversations about how to treat each other well (some of them are even beyond the "Thou Shalt Not Covet Thy Sister's Toy" level) into actual operating "truths".
nibbler wrote:
15 Apr 2022, 11:40
What you describe feels like many church programs. Are they really organic things people want to do, or is it more of an obligation?. Things we do just so we can tell ourselves (and others) that we've done them. Don't forget the part where we feel bad for not meeting an obligation that we didn't have interest in to begin with.
Honestly, I view all church programs as something started small scale that worked really well to solve 1 localized problem that got standardization and funding before being calcified into tradition. It took a lot of guilt away from me by reminding me that it might work for 1 location, 1 group, 1 person, or 1 family - and it doesn't work for me - and vice versa.

Minyan Man
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Re: I am slowly becoming depressed about attending church...

Post by Minyan Man » 21 Apr 2022, 13:31

I've been thinking more about Elder Bednar's talk: https://www.byui.edu/devotionals/elder-david-a-bednar

He said the following:
I find it especially instructive that repetition is such an important aspect of the essential and most
sacred ordinances in which we participate as members of the Savior"s restored Church. Repetitious learning
and teaching as a line upon line and precept upon precept pattern of revelation can invite the Holy Ghost to renew, enrich,
and enlarge the knowledge we already have obtained; it also can bring new knowledge and understanding into our
minds and hearts.
I'm wondering if this carries over into the way the church presents itself to the membership as a whole.
For example:
. We have General Conference talks that inspire & instruct.
- We then read the same talks in the Church magazines.
- We then have classes that again present & discuss the same principles presented in GC.

I think there is a place for teaching repetitive lessons. For example, when you're teaching a person swimming lessons.
Or, Temple Ordinances. Or, Priesthood Ordinances for the Sacrament or giving a blessing, etc.

There are various methods for teaching. Teaching repetitively is only one way. I'm not an expert in teaching.
This is my own assumption. The ultimate teacher (IMO) was & is Jesus Christ. I read recently that approximately 30% of what
he taught was in the form of parables. As I understand it, he would teach a lesson, explain the lesson then leave it
to the listener to determine what happened next. For example, the parable of the Prodigal Son. He leaves it to
our imagination to determine what various people thought or believed. For example the older brother in the parable:
was he angry at his Father or younger brother?

The most fulfilling classes for me are ones where the teacher encourages the students to explore all options & opinions.
Then, discuss which options or opinions best fit your religious beliefs & defend your belief.
Does this make any sense at all?

AmyJ
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Re: I am slowly becoming depressed about attending church...

Post by AmyJ » 22 Apr 2022, 05:29

Minyan Man wrote:
21 Apr 2022, 13:31
The most fulfilling classes for me are ones where the teacher encourages the students to explore all options & opinions.
Then, discuss which options or opinions best fit your religious beliefs & defend your belief.
Does this make any sense at all?
For the last few months I have been thinking about "Description" and "Prescription" as opposite sides of a continuum/gradient.

It's not a "fixed point" either. When faced with an initial situation, it's good to focus on getting a "description" of the situation and potential factors contributing to it/connected to it. Eventually you act on that knowledge - that's a "prescription" as it were. If it doesn't work, or needs refinement, or some of the factors shift (as they will), then you go back to the description side before "re-writing" a "prescription".

It seems to me that a respectable amount of fights with me happen when someone takes what I am saying further towards the "Prescription" side then I actually intended (or vice versa).

We feel shame in part when someone else is writing a "prescription" for us to follow that is not sustainable - and may do us more harm than good.

The journey from childhood to adulthood is really training in compiling personal "descriptions" and learning to write appropriate "prescriptions" for ourselves instead of relying on the "prescriptions" our parents wrote to keep us safe. NOTE: Just because our parents wrote it doesn't make it wrong or make it not a useful tool in the situation. I am trying to define the shift of personal responsibility from being outsourced to parents (parents write the rules in the beginning about what keeps kids safe) to insourced inside the child). Baptism and "Graduation" to YM/YW are our rituals to mark a point in time where our church culture celebrates and/or expects a certain amount of insourcing to the child (in terms of capacity to make those decisions and expectation that the child is making those decisions).

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