Not quite President

Public forum to discuss questions about Mormon history and doctrine.
Curt Sunshine
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Re: Not quite President

Post by Curt Sunshine » 08 Mar 2018, 20:42

Hyrum Smith

In practical, genealogical terms, this is his church, not Joseph's. That is far too easy to forget.

(much like the Book of Mormon is Jacob's record more than Nephi's)
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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DarkJedi
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Re: Not quite President

Post by DarkJedi » 09 Mar 2018, 09:05

I've always liked Oliver Cowdery and he did have a great deal of influence as Joseph's friend and confidant. Were he to have stayed with the church I think it would have evolved differently, although I question whether he might have stayed with the Missouri church when the others moved west. I suppose that depends on other things - like if BY become president or not.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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SamBee
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Re: Not quite President

Post by SamBee » 09 Mar 2018, 12:29

Roadrunner wrote:
08 Mar 2018, 15:02
Emma Smith.

If she had handled polygamy differently (in support of or in opposition to) we might have a very different church.
Yes I think she did have a big influence on the church, though she ended up in the RLDS. I put Eliza Snow as my female choice (and let's be honest, there aren't many), because we still sing her hymns.

It's said by some that complaints about spittoons by her led to the Word of Wisdom.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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Beefster
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Re: Not quite President

Post by Beefster » 09 Mar 2018, 21:15

SamBee wrote:
09 Mar 2018, 12:29
Yes I think she did have a big influence on the church, though she ended up in the RLDS. I put Eliza Snow as my female choice (and let's be honest, there aren't many), because we still sing her hymns.
I hope you're not including "In Our Lovely Deseret" in that list. Good gravy, that's a bad hymn. Her other stuff is good though. :P

It's a shame there aren't many other influential women.

The only one that comes to mind is Cheiko Okazaki.
Boys are governed by rules. Men are governed by principles.

Sometimes our journeys take us to unexpected places. That is a truly beautiful thing.

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dande48
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Re: Not quite President

Post by dande48 » 09 Mar 2018, 21:22

DarkJedi wrote:
09 Mar 2018, 09:05
I've always liked Oliver Cowdery and he did have a great deal of influence as Joseph's friend and confidant. Were he to have stayed with the church I think it would have evolved differently, although I question whether he might have stayed with the Missouri church when the others moved west. I suppose that depends on other things - like if BY become president or not.
I always liked Oliver Cowdery. I think if he, Orson Hyde, or even Thomas Marsh were allowed to become president (over BY), the Church would've really prospered. I feel like those men genuinely loved Joseph Smith, but at the same time were willing to put their foot down when things got out of hand.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

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SamBee
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Re: Not quite President

Post by SamBee » 10 Mar 2018, 09:17

Beefster wrote:
09 Mar 2018, 21:15
SamBee wrote:
09 Mar 2018, 12:29
Yes I think she did have a big influence on the church, though she ended up in the RLDS. I put Eliza Snow as my female choice (and let's be honest, there aren't many), because we still sing her hymns.
I hope you're not including "In Our Lovely Deseret" in that list. Good gravy, that's a bad hymn. Her other stuff is good though. :P

It's a shame there aren't many other influential women.

The only one that comes to mind is Cheiko Okazaki.
Sheri Dew comes to mind...

I find Eliza Snow one of the most interesting people in the early church.

From the Wikipedia (!) article we learn the following:

* She was instrumental in ensuring the construction of the Kirtland temple.
* She was gang raped so badly by anti-Mormons that she couldn't conceive children. 😟
* She influenced directly President Lorenzo Snow. And quite probably both Joseph Smith & Brigham Young.
* She was instrumental in shaping the Relief Society.

That and being a good writer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliza_R._Snow
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Roy
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Re: Not quite President

Post by Roy » 11 Mar 2018, 15:12

Marion G. Romney
SamBee wrote:
10 Mar 2018, 09:17
She was gang raped so badly by anti-Mormons that she couldn't conceive children.
I understand the evidence for this to be weak. It may have happened and then not spoken of in mixed company or documented due to the sensitive nature. Or it is possible that this is just wives tale gossip intended to demonize the anti-Mormon Missouri mob and ennoble the childless status of Eliza Snow. Until we find more compelling evidence for a rape, I am leaning towards the latter.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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DarkJedi
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Re: Not quite President

Post by DarkJedi » 11 Mar 2018, 16:30

Joseph B. Wirthlin. Minor influence, but present nonetheless. I seem to hear him quoted more often than many of his contemporaries (and I often quote him myself).
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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LDS_Scoutmaster
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Re: Not quite President

Post by LDS_Scoutmaster » 12 Mar 2018, 18:59

Paul H. Dunn

I remember justifying some of his stories, 'embelishing' rather than outright lying. But then I realized that people are the same regardless of stature or position.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6311&start=70#p121051 My last talk

We are all imperfect beings, dealing with other imperfect beings, and we're doing it imperfectly.

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SamBee
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Re: Not quite President

Post by SamBee » 13 Mar 2018, 08:23

LDS_Scoutmaster wrote:
12 Mar 2018, 18:59
Paul H. Dunn

I remember justifying some of his stories, 'embelishing' rather than outright lying. But then I realized that people are the same regardless of stature or position.
A lot of people embellish their life stories, especially politicians, actors and writers.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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