Why Do We Hate/Dislike Them So?

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mom3
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Why Do We Hate/Dislike Them So?

Post by mom3 » 24 Oct 2014, 16:13

The topic should be Ray on watch. ;) I admit as I begin that I have been recovering from surgery, so my facilities are a bit off here, but I wondered - Why do we struggle, hate, despise, cringe, and so on with TBMs? I confess I do it, if I plan to be an adult in life I need to answer this. Why do their facebook posts clutch at my heart? Why do their answers at church tear at my soul? Why do I dread interaction with them?

I know this simple answer is - I am different. If they knew the full real me they would reject me. I know that because I have rejected and do reject others. The crazy thing about this - I was once them. Yes facebook wasn't around, or even email, but if they had been I would have posted the same apostle quotes, meme's and videos. I would have said lofty words about following the Lord's anointed and the rest - which is why I ask the question. Why does their being where I once was - offend me? Why can't my heart love that they are on their journey and right now they are standing in such and such a spot. Who knows a decade from now they may be a in a different spot? Will I still recoil at them? I wonder.

All I know is I don't get mad at kids who can't tie their shoe, I rather adore their effort, and eventually bend down and tie it.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Why Do We Hate/Dislike Them So?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 24 Oct 2014, 18:18

Why would I be on watch about this? It's a great topic, and your actual post is very insightful.

I don't hate "them", and I dislike relatively few - mostly because I've had to be comfortable with my different-ness for so long that allowing others to be different than I am has become internalized. I am saddened regularly, and I am upset sometimes at what is said, but I have given up on having expectations for others that I generate and which, generally, are unrealistic for them as real people.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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LookingHard
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Re: Why Do We Hate/Dislike Them So?

Post by LookingHard » 24 Oct 2014, 18:41

I consider myself a rather compassionate person and ever since I was small I remember automatically trying to put myself in other people's shoes - think of their perspective.

But I am a bit with Mom on this wondering why TBM's (sometimes) get under my skin. Most of the time I am content to just see the good in people, but even this last week in High Priests an 80+ year old brother made a comment that was WRONG WRONG (and in fact I am about 99% sure he was lying). I was able to bit my tongue because this brother spouts off something every week and generally it rolls off everyone like water on the back of a duck. But if it would have been in Gospel Doctrine or Elders Q, I probably would have tried to at least bring up there is another way to see that.

I don't like feeling that way about another TBM - especially when they are a leader that I respect.

Now if what they are saying/doing is hurting someone, I am done keeping my mouth shut. I may be (or may not be) tactful about it, but I am not going to let it slide.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Why Do We Hate/Dislike Them So?

Post by DarkJedi » 24 Oct 2014, 20:36

It's a good question. I don't know that I don't like them, but I see what you mean - sometimes I have a hard time being in the same physical location as some of them, but I was once them. This fear of being around them also kept me from going back to church for some months after I knew I wanted to. I have more or less learned to put them in boxes, just like I put Catholics, Baptists, and atheists in their own boxes. They're just people who believe differently than I do, and some of them are worth ignoring almost completely when they talk about religion. On the other hand, I also recognize that sometimes I can learn from their perspectives.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Heber13
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Re: Why Do We Hate/Dislike Them So?

Post by Heber13 » 24 Oct 2014, 21:48

I have also looked inwardly at how I react to others. I have found that during my struggles when I was wrestling with issues I felt like I had somewhat of a spiritual sunburn.

While others touching me was not really them doing anything abnormal, it was at times excruciating to me, because of the state I was in. The pain was real, I just couldn't really put blame on others for it.

But I don't think I hated them, although at times things they said drove me to leave a class or the church building.

It took time to allow myself to heal. But I can be around everyone in the church now, and talk to family, and not feel the burn I once had.

Sometimes it takes time to heal. There isn't always blame or dislike towards others, there is just a burn and a healing time and we can find thins get better and more tolerable.


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Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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SunbeltRed
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Re: Why Do We Hate/Dislike Them So?

Post by SunbeltRed » 25 Oct 2014, 05:16

The title of this thread just makes me chuckle.

Mom3, I hear you. I probably don't have quite the same reaction that you have (even before my "official" faith crisis I have been rolling my eyes at church for a long time), but there are days that I want to pull out my hair, especially interacting in a stake leadership role. Some of the things I hear a certain Bishop say make me want to scream.

But sometimes I do bristle. I see it as an act of love and compassion to worship and serve with others with differing viewpoints. As I wish for more compassion for "faithful doubters" I must offer my acceptance and compassion and kindness in return. Since love and kindness are a few of the things that I know to be true, it is one of the few things I have to offer to those who think a bit different than I do (this by no means indicates any type of perfection at doing so, just that I am trying). :smile:

Peace to you and I hope your recovery from surgery is going well.

-SBRed

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mom3
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Re: Why Do We Hate/Dislike Them So?

Post by mom3 » 25 Oct 2014, 11:14

Thanks for all of your insights. I have been attached to this crisis/transition much longer than I planned and it seems just when I think I am at a calm spot something happens to throw the whole works. I think I am too tired, to worn out, and the balance I once thought possible may not happen for a very long time.

I like people. I really do and that is a large part of the problem. I guess this is a season to say - it's not working and accept that as my present status.

I am glad we are around so we can talk, I can't imagine how others in the past have survived.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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LookingHard
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Re: Why Do We Hate/Dislike Them So?

Post by LookingHard » 25 Oct 2014, 12:33

mom3 wrote:I am glad we are around so we can talk, I can't imagine how others in the past have survived.
I think they just left the church.

startpoor
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Re: Why Do We Hate/Dislike Them So?

Post by startpoor » 25 Oct 2014, 15:21

Glad you posted this, I have been thinking about this a lot lately, as SM has become much more painful lately and I now skip Sunday School altogether. I don't think I hate the people themselves--I just hate all the perpetuated ignorance. I get frustrated because I believe that if they knew the hard truths about JS etc, the enthusiasm expressed on his behalf at the pulpit would almost vanish. Not everyone would leave the church though, many would stay, but they would be bearing their testimony about something else.

When it's people who do know their history, I don't get nearly as irritated. My bishop for example, knows his history better than me, but still has a largely orthodox testimony that regularly offends me (and I tell him that) but I don't get angry. I respect him and we can talk openly.

I heard a Lutheran pastor/radio talk show host do a show about Mormon Missionaries, and he made a good point (from a Lutheran perspective), which was: don't get angry at them when they show up at your door, try and understand that they are products of their institution, and believe they are doing the right thing. Take them in, be kind, feed them, and bear your beliefs about Christ's "true" nature.

I try and have that approach--while it may be wrong for me to only respect the beliefs of those who know their history--I still try and love them, and if I can, learn from them, and try and teach them too. But only out of the spirit of love.
Happiness (n.) The state of being in compliance with Mormon norms, regardless of one’s actual resulting emotional state

George, Sr.: Faith is a fact. No, faith is a facet. I almost said faith is a fact.

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NewLight
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Re: Why Do We Hate/Dislike Them So?

Post by NewLight » 25 Oct 2014, 18:33

Hi Mom3,

I think maybe the main reason why we people in this forum might have a difficult time with them is that we have pretty much lost the "tow the line and obey no matter" mentality that we associate with that group. We just need to realize that a) many of us were there once (I was) and b) they are just doing what they think is best for them and their families. I am not familiar with all the spiritual experiences they have had and the like, but somehow, the angle they take speaks to them and provides comfort.

I just want to be their friends and help where I can even though we might disagree. It's amuses me sometimes when I do disagree with them in HPG lessons and they worry that they offended me. Some have even come up to me afterward to make sure I'm all right.

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