Denver Snuffer Update

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Curt Sunshine
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Denver Snuffer Update

Post by Curt Sunshine » 12 Sep 2014, 12:44

Denver Snuffer is organizing his followers into a "community" (supposedly, not a church led by him :roll: ), because he says the LDS leadership forfeited its priesthood authority when he was excommunicated and he "wrested it" from them, as prophesied in scripture. (Yes, he says his movement was prophesied in scripture.) He is claiming to be a second great restorer. He also says all of his LDS followers should be rebaptized. In essence, he claims that the LDS Church is too liberal and believers need to return with him to the days of Joseph Smith. One of his most . . . unique . . . claims is that only men should have the Priesthood but that seven women should sustain each man officially (and that only women should sustain men) - based on a badly mangled or totally new reading of an Old Testament passage about seven women latching onto one man in the days of desolation and destruction. It might or might not be a precursor to an attempt to restore polygamy, but it certainly could be used that way if this is the way he is using it initially.

I won't claim prophecy, but I said he was an apostate in every sense of the word from the moment he wrote "Passing the Heavenly Gate" (if not earlier) and started steps to organize a following, and this new development makes that an understatement. His followers still insist they aren't his followers - and that he isn't organizing a church - and on and on and on.

Frankly, I also think the Church leadership understood very well what he was doing - and that it influenced the way they viewed Kate Kelly and her movement, fairly or unfairly. I think she was damaged by his movement that was happening simultaneously.

Just thought we should have an update, since it's been discussed here in the past.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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DarkJedi
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Re: Denver Snuffer Update

Post by DarkJedi » 12 Sep 2014, 13:22

Thanks for the update, Ray. I had read some stuff he recently said, which fits exactly with what you have posted. I had at one point thought that he wasn't much different from many of us here, but you are absolutely right - it doesn't get much more apostate than that.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Sheldon
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Re: Denver Snuffer Update

Post by Sheldon » 12 Sep 2014, 13:33

I’m friends with one of Denver’s followers. It’s an interesting dichotomy, as he is far right, and I’m far left WRT church stuff, but we have interesting conversations about what is wrong with the church. We both agree on several things that need to be changed, we differ on how to change them, and what they should be changed to.

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Re: Denver Snuffer Update

Post by Curt Sunshine » 12 Sep 2014, 14:17

Sheldon, I also am friends with some of his followers, and your description of our discussions is spot-on.

Snuffer is a conservative apostate - a modern-day "kingman", to use the scriptural example that comes to mind most readily to me.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

nibbler
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Re: Denver Snuffer Update

Post by nibbler » 12 Sep 2014, 14:42

Strange... his story kind of reminds me of a young man from about 200 years ago that I was reading about.

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Denver Snuffer Update

Post by Curt Sunshine » 12 Sep 2014, 14:47

Yes, it does, nibbler, in some ways - and he draws that explicit comparison.

I see more differences than parallels, but there absolutely are similarities.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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mercyngrace
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Re: Denver Snuffer Update

Post by mercyngrace » 12 Sep 2014, 17:23

I admit I'm surprised by this latest turn. I took him at his word that he was not trying to lead a movement. But then, all I've seen online are Tim Malone's notes so until I read the text (if I read it) of his remarks, I'm going to presume he's talking about people organizing to take care of one another. That's how he described Zion. Mormon Stories also organized communities with the purpose of gathering like minded people who were to provide support to one another so I'm just going to cross my fingers and hope he's not as crazy as the notes make him sound.

But maybe I'm just hopelessly hopeful that people are better than they sometimes are...

What I find ironic is that the church doesn't seem to want people who believe too much any more than they want people who believe too little. The narrow way... lol.
Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. ~ Luke 7:47

jhp33
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Re: Denver Snuffer Update

Post by jhp33 » 12 Sep 2014, 22:15

I'm pretty sure Denver actually said anyone baptized under authority gained AFTER the April 2014 LDS GC must be re-baptized, not everyone.

That's when he claims authority was wrested from the church.

That being said, I'd love to hear specifically in what manner Denver believes he was called to be a prophet. He claims to have received personal visits from the resurrected Christ. I'd love to hear more about these visits.

I'm skeptical, but I think it's sad that I feel a twinge of excitement at the notion of someone actually and publicly claiming to have received a personal visitation from the Lord. That someone has received a literal prophetic witness and will actually talk about it without using the standard "too sacred to speak of" excuse.

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Re: Denver Snuffer Update

Post by Curt Sunshine » 13 Sep 2014, 12:53

He's been all over the place in saying when the leadership fell into apostasy - and I mean, literally, all over the place.

Other than doing what he swore he never would do, my biggest issue with him is that he is a really bad historian - that he takes things from the past and twists them into incredible knots to make the points he wants to make. The timing of a claimed loss of authority by the LDS leadership and his wresting of it from them (and his basing that in scripture) is just one example of how bizarre I think his justifications have become. I think he will say anything and everything to justify what he is doing, no matter what it has to be. He is highly intelligent - but I see that intelligence being used in ludicrous ways, just like I saw the same thing in college so often while surrounded by highly intelligent people.

Anyway, this was meant to be more a simple update than a discussion of merit.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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cwald
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Re: Denver Snuffer Update

Post by cwald » 13 Sep 2014, 15:06

See Christ. Claim other churches were in apostasy. Claim oneself as a prophet with authority. ....I guess it was okay for Joseph Smith to do it. But not okay for anyone else.

Next thing I suppose is mormons criticizing Denver for starting polygamy and sleeping with other men's wives?

PS...yes yes, Snuffer is, and has been, an apostate.
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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