LDS church supports LGBQT conversion therapy?

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Heber13
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Re: LDS church supports LGBQT conversion therapy?

Post by Heber13 » 18 Oct 2019, 02:51

I just worry laws written to correct some social problem could introduce unintended consequences or just swap one inequality for another inequality and not increase true freedom.

I haven't read enough of these issues to know how hey are written, but that is my concern, and I think the prophets may be somewhat right that we should protect our freedom of religion.

I want to promote equal rights for LGBTQ+ and improve therapy and practices, but not at all costs.

I should get more educated on the issues, but not sure I have time. There are lots of worries in our society right now. But I hope the church is also protected along with the rights of others.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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Re: LDS church supports LGBQT conversion therapy?

Post by nibbler » 18 Oct 2019, 05:55

More often than not when someone says their religious freedoms are under attack it usually stops at "but my religious freedoms" with no specifics. It would be easier for me to get on the religious freedom train if people would cite specific laws or ways in which religious freedoms are being eroded. Without specifics I'm left thinking:

1) The call for religious freedoms are rooted in fears of what's at the bottom of some imagined slippery slope.
2) It has less to do about religious freedom and more to do with fear over religion losing influence over society.
3) A desire not to be judged by society for the position one has taken.
Heber13 wrote:
18 Oct 2019, 02:51
I just worry laws written to correct some social problem could introduce unintended consequences or just swap one inequality for another inequality and not increase true freedom.
That's always a risk with any law. Also, if that's the standard we wouldn't have any laws at all. It's like Alma's seed analogy. Plant the seed (experiment/roll the dice) and if it works out, great; if it doesn't work out, change it to something else and reevaluate. We've made it this far doing that.

I'm not sure how to state this, bear with me. When it comes to "freedoms":

With gay marriage it was one group attempting to prevent another group from doing something. With this law it's one group attempting to prevent another group from doing something... but with the sides of the debate flipped with respect to which group is doing the preventing.

But what does freedom mean? No having laws that prevent people from doing something they want to do? Should affinity fraud be legal because someone out there want's to commit fraud? Do laws making certain substances illegal to consume/possess infringe on someone's freedom to use those substances or does it give them freedom to be free from addiction to those substances. "Freedom" is a tricky thing.
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Heber13
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Re: LDS church supports LGBQT conversion therapy?

Post by Heber13 » 18 Oct 2019, 06:30

nibbler wrote:
18 Oct 2019, 05:55
"Freedom" is a tricky thing.
Good response, nibbler. It is a tricky thing.

For all those reasons you stated...doesn't it make sense, then...that any proposed change in the political arena we operate in should consider rights of all and weigh the options...not just one group that may have legitimately been wronged?

My point I guess is that the church may be wrong, I don't know, but just because the LGBTQ+ issue is raised doesn't necessarily mean the law proposed is doing it the right way. I haven't read the details but church lawyers have and may have a legitimate issue with the proposed law, which doesn't necessarily mean they are against the LGBTQ group...just that the law proposed is the wrong way to deal with it.

How does the church protect it's rights without being demonized as hate towards others? Why can't they say they want to protect rights of LGBTQ families and church freedoms to practice what they believe?

Why does it have to be one or the other?
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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Re: LDS church supports LGBQT conversion therapy?

Post by DarkJedi » 18 Oct 2019, 06:53

This is an opinion piece published in the Deseret News today:

https://www.deseret.com/2019/10/17/2091 ... -headlines

It is another point of view, but does, in my own opinion, try to dance around the subject. I think it does however explain the point Family Services is trying to make.
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Re: LDS church supports LGBQT conversion therapy?

Post by nibbler » 18 Oct 2019, 06:58

Heber13 wrote:
18 Oct 2019, 06:30
For all those reasons you stated...doesn't it make sense, then...that any proposed change in the political arena we operate in should consider rights of all and weigh the options...not just one group that may have legitimately been wronged?
I believe they are doing exactly this. I guess that's the arena of lawmakers and lobbyists and the church is just another lobbyist.
Heber13 wrote:
18 Oct 2019, 06:30
How does the church protect it's rights without being demonized as hate towards others? Why can't they say they want to protect rights of LGBTQ families and church freedoms to practice what they believe?

Why does it have to be one or the other?
There's a lot to unpack there, but the abbreviated response is: The church takes a position on something, society reacts. That's life.
Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
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Re: LDS church supports LGBQT conversion therapy?

Post by nibbler » 18 Oct 2019, 07:30

DarkJedi wrote:
18 Oct 2019, 06:53
This is an opinion piece published in the Deseret News today:

https://www.deseret.com/2019/10/17/2091 ... -headlines

It is another point of view, but does, in my own opinion, try to dance around the subject. I think it does however explain the point Family Services is trying to make.
Thanks for the link.

:think:

I wonder if one worry church lawyers have is whether bishops could run afoul of this law by counseling a youth and the subject of sexual orientation comes up.
Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
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Re: LDS church supports LGBQT conversion therapy?

Post by Roy » 18 Oct 2019, 11:27

DarkJedi wrote:
18 Oct 2019, 06:53
This is an opinion piece published in the Deseret News today:

https://www.deseret.com/2019/10/17/2091 ... -headlines

It is another point of view, but does, in my own opinion, try to dance around the subject. I think it does however explain the point Family Services is trying to make.
Yes! This link is supper helpful! It provides what appears to be the Family Services comments that had not been publicly released earlier! :clap: :clap: :clap:
The church has publicly spoken out on conversion therapy, denouncing “any therapy including conversion and reparative therapies that subjects people to abusive practices in Utah and around the world.”
The genius of this sentence is that it essentially says that the church denounces therapy that abuses people - without actually taking any stand on what therapy does or does not abuse people. It can be like saying, "The church denounces any government including democracies, monarchies, oligarchies, or dictatorships that subject people to abuse and oppression in Utah and around the world."
And for several years now, the church has stated on its “Mormon and Gay” website that it is “unethical to focus professional treatment on an assumption that a change in sexual orientation will or must occur.” According to reporting, the church was even involved in shaping some elements of earlier legislation seeking to ban conversion therapy in Utah — HB399 — which failed to advance out of committee earlier this year.

I understand that it didn't make it out of committee because conservative voices had the gender identity portion removed and those same voices defined conversion therapy as narrowly as the above quote does "professional treatment on an assumption that a change in sexual orientation will or must occur.” In essence, under the proposed bill that didn't make it out of committee a therapist could still focus professional treatment on maximizing heterosexual orientations and behaviors as long as they do not make any promises that they can make the homosexual feelings go away. A therapist could still counsel you into getting heterosexual married as long as they were clear that the marriage might not cure you and that homosexual feeling may persist throughout your life. That is why the earlier bill was scuttled - because it had been mangled so badly as to be ineffective. The original sponsor of the bill withdrew it because he couldn't recognize it anymore. This is the critical difference between defining conversion therapy as a "professional treatment on an assumption that a change in sexual orientation will or must occur” but not as a "professional treatment on an assumption that a change in sexual orientation may occur.” This is why I feel that the church is playing sneaky word games here.
Those, including youth, that seek therapies that constitute sexual orientation change efforts will not receive them from FS counselors. Instead, FS counselors assist youth clients in understanding sexual orientation issues in the context of their families and social networks, their expressed religious identity, and their self-determined personal goals, including those pertaining to their faith.
Apparently Family Services therapists does not engage in conversion therapy - that is good as far as I can tell. Then what is the big deal with this proposed rule change then? What does it look like to "assist youth clients in understanding sexual orientation issues in the context of their families and social networks, their expressed religious identity, and their self-determined personal goals, including those pertaining to their faith"? As the Family Services document continues, it becomes clear that FS therapists do engage in therapy aimed at ceasing homosexual behaviors consistent with the client's stated values, religious community norms, and prioritizing religious identity over sexual identity. The proposed rule change would drastically change how FS conducts therapy for SSA and gender identity!

Although, as I stated before, this gets sneaky if they define conversion therapy extremely narrowly. Family Services wants to be able to counsel a gay person to live a heterosexual lifestyle as long as they are clear that the gay feelings might never go away. They want to confine the definition of conversion therapy to the electric shock therapy and other therapies that exist only to change sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual.

As long as there is no official standard on what conversion therapy means, individual therapists and groups are free to define it in different ways. They can claim that they oppose conversion therapy while simultaneously performing what others would define as conversion therapy.
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Re: LDS church supports LGBQT conversion therapy?

Post by Roy » 18 Oct 2019, 11:38

To be fair to the church and Family Services, I think they have some good points in regard to gender identity with youth. There do appear to be risks in both transitioning too early and in waiting too long to transition. Hard position to be in!

I wish the church had left the homosexual conversion therapy aspect alone and solely focused their concerns on the gender identity and transgender portion.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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Re: LDS church supports LGBQT conversion therapy?

Post by Roy » 18 Oct 2019, 11:44

nibbler wrote:
18 Oct 2019, 07:30
I wonder if one worry church lawyers have is whether bishops could run afoul of this law by counseling a youth and the subject of sexual orientation comes up.
This rule change only affects "certain health care professionals". However, it does make me wonder what would happen if a particular bishop worked as a therapist for his day job. Could he counsel church youth in what amounted to conversion therapy under the new rule as long as he was acting as an unpaid bishop and not as a therapist at the time? Supposing that this would be permissible, would it change the outcome if the youth in question was also a client or patient of this bishop/therapist? Sure sounds like a conflict of interest. I assume that the church lawyers would want to avoid such thorny scenarios.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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Re: LDS church supports LGBQT conversion therapy?

Post by Heber13 » 18 Oct 2019, 23:38

Excellent summary, Roy.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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