And the fruits of coffee are . . .

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DarkJedi
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Re: And the fruits of coffee are . . .

Post by DarkJedi » 01 May 2019, 12:06

Just throwing out here that if you subscribe to the idea that iced coffee or tea are not by definition "hot" then you have that out. Also, I remember reading an article a few years ago about what Mormons could get at Starbucks and it was on an orthodox site. So just going to Starbucks does not necessarily indicate "sinful behavior."
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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dande48
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Re: And the fruits of coffee are . . .

Post by dande48 » 01 May 2019, 13:11

"All trees produce something."

I think with most things, even things we "shouldn't" do, have some benefit behind them. Otherwise we wouldn't do it. Alcohol has benefits. Smoking has benefits. Painkillers have benefits. Porn has benefits. Adultery has benefits... etc. You get the idea.

But there are still certain behaviors we should avoid, because the drawbacks are greater than the benefits. And there are behaviors we should embrace, not because of a lack of drawbacks, but because the benefits outweigh them. But it's also very easy to rationalize doing the wrong thing, since we can always find reasons it is right. And it's easy to avoid doing the right thing because we can find so many reasons why it's wrong.

I guess coffee is like that. Drink it if you're willing to put up with the consequences (both good and bad). Don't drink it if you don't want to deal with those consequences. I'd say the same for just about anything.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
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Rumin8
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Re: And the fruits of coffee are . . .

Post by Rumin8 » 02 May 2019, 13:11

Felixfabulous,

I started drinking coffee in earnest about 2 years ago. Prior to that I would sample some here and there, but the barriers to entry (family considerations, WoW, visibility, etc) prevented me from acting on it further. As a general rule, I avoid sugary and diet sodas, sugar in general, and try to be moderate in my nutritional habits.

My gateway coffee drink was a mocha latte, then skinny mocha latte, then machiatto or normal latte, and now my usual is an americano. Black, no sweetener. Sometimes milk, sometimes no. Sometimes hot, sometimes iced. I ADORE coffee. I enjoy the stimulant. I love the bitterness. I enjoy the coffee shop atmosphere. I enjoy talking and meeting people in those environments. I enjoy taking a moment to myself to read the news or listen to a podcast while I'm sipping a cup of my drink of choice that day. Presumably I could achieve these experiences and feelings in other areas and in other places, but I haven't. At least up to now.

As others have stated, I would not recommend that you do any of this in secret. I know this is easier said than done. My wife is aware that I drink it. She may not be aware of the frequency (which is more days than not). We agree to disagree on coffee (like many other things). That all said, she has picked me up a drink or two in the past from Starbucks. We go to coffee shops regularly together. I order what I want, and she usually orders a steamer or a herbal tea. I would love to have a espresso machine in my house. I'm hoping that by next year this time I do. I will save a lot of money, that's for sure.

Just like shopping on Sunday, I have been surprised by the people I run into in coffee shops. Generally we share a wink and move along to our respective business. Some are very uncomfortable when they see me and recognize me. I have a "coffee" meeting with a ward member friend of mine once or twice a month. We both hold high level callings. He has a TR. I do not. Neither of us see a problem with what we are doing. We recognize that others in our ward and families would disagree with us. I no longer care what others will say about me if they see me with a cup of coffee. I have learned that more people are shall we say "flexible" with the word of wisdom then I ever imagined. I have no answer for why this is other than the idea that they, like me, are charting their own course.

I'm not holding my breath for the church to change it's position. I wanted them to. When it didn't happen, I was disappointed. Upon reflection, I'm glad things didn't change. I joke that my coffee wouldn't taste as good. But the main reason I'm glad is that I don't want to process why something the church has taught as evil and unhealthy is suddenly okay. I have been paying particular attention this past six months or so, and there has not been ONE Sunday that has gone by that the word of wisdom has NOT been mentioned. We have an ironically unhealthy fascination with the word of wisdom. We get caught up in practices in place of doctrine. This is a giant pet peeve of mine.

I really like Dande's thought on consequences. I live my life that way. In most the things I do, I anticipate the best and worst consequences of that decision. If I am willing to accept the worst case consequence, then I will go forward. If I do not, then I will not. That is how my conscience is governed.
"Moderation in all things, especially moderation." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

"Be excellent to each other." - Abraham Lincoln to Bill & Ted

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felixfabulous
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Re: And the fruits of coffee are . . .

Post by felixfabulous » 06 May 2019, 12:17

Enjoyed the thoughts, glad to hear some are in the same boat. I just really enjoy it, like Rumin8, it's such a great way to take time and enjoy one's surroundings or reading the news while sipping on the coffee. I haven't had the same experience with other drinks.

I've thought about shopping for a prescription for it, that would be totally silly and unnecessary, but may give me some cover to be a little more open with my kids and around town. I'm glad I was honest from my wife from the get-go and that she has been supportive and been able to laugh about it.

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DarkJedi
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Re: And the fruits of coffee are . . .

Post by DarkJedi » 06 May 2019, 15:50

felixfabulous wrote:
06 May 2019, 12:17
I'm glad I was honest from my wife from the get-go and that she has been supportive and been able to laugh about it.
And that is an asset. Last week I found that V8 makes an energy drink that's half juice and half green tea. I bought some to try. I like it. My wife won't touch it because it contains green tea (even though the ingredients do state green tea extract). Even the "it's not a hot drink" argument doesn't wash. Be glad for what you have.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Minyan Man
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Re: And the fruits of coffee are . . .

Post by Minyan Man » 06 May 2019, 17:22

Sometimes I wonder if God sits in the celestial heaven & comments to those around him...
Do you believe what the church has done with the Guidance I've given them? They were suppose to use common sense & personal revelation to make daily personal decisions to use the good elements of this earthly life & avoid the bad. I seems they like to complicate every communication I've given them.

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Katzpur
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Re: And the fruits of coffee are . . .

Post by Katzpur » 06 May 2019, 17:39

Well, since I absolutely hate coffee, it doesn't matter to me whether it's made "legal" or not. I just wish I could drink my twice yearly glass of wine without being guilt-laden.
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." ~Rudyard Kipling ~

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Cadence
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Re: And the fruits of coffee are . . .

Post by Cadence » 12 May 2019, 11:21

Katzpur wrote:Well, since I absolutely hate coffee, it doesn't matter to me whether it's made "legal" or not. I just wish I could drink my twice yearly glass of wine without being guilt-laden.
I am there. Never liked coffee but a cold beer on a hot afternoon is sooooo refreshing.


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DarkJedi
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Re: And the fruits of coffee are . . .

Post by DarkJedi » 13 May 2019, 05:45

Cadence wrote:
12 May 2019, 11:21
Katzpur wrote:Well, since I absolutely hate coffee, it doesn't matter to me whether it's made "legal" or not. I just wish I could drink my twice yearly glass of wine without being guilt-laden.
I am there. Never liked coffee but a cold beer on a hot afternoon is sooooo refreshing.
This is where I am at as well. I love the smell of coffee, but can't stand the stuff. But a cold beer on a hot day would hit the spot. I do on occasion indulge in an iced tea because I have reckoned that iced tea is by definition not a hot drink and therefore could not be against the WoW which specifically addresses hot drinks. The topic of decaffeinated coffee came up in priesthood yesterday, and one fairly staunch guy actually came up with it being a personal choice - which was great!
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

Minyan Man
Posts: 1728
Joined: 15 Sep 2011, 13:40

Re: And the fruits of coffee are . . .

Post by Minyan Man » 13 May 2019, 06:39

Doesn't it feel like we are developing our own "Kosher" set of ritual or dietary rules that must be followed to be fully accepted by God?
It seems odd to me that God gives us revelation and man wants to complicate the hell out of it.

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