Prophetic Flaws in Scripture

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DarkJedi
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Re: Prophetic Flaws in Scripture

Post by DarkJedi » 26 Apr 2019, 14:57

Curt Sunshine wrote:
26 Apr 2019, 11:36
There is power in the concept of a Savior and Redeemer....
Agreed, and I like the concept either way. I do believe and hope that Jesus really is as we are taught and really is the Son of God. I do have my questions though, questions which will probably not be answered in my earthly life. So I can reach a middle way understanding if that's what it takes for me to have faith. Is it possible Jesus really is the literal Son of God and actually suffered in some incomprehensible way to pay for all of our sins? Absolutely. Is it also possible the whole idea is more symbolic than "real" (actual, physical)? Yep. Are there more possibilities than these two? Probably many.
I think forcing only one view actually distorts and minimizes its power, so I never argue with anyone who finds power in a view I don't share...
Yep, like so many other things. I believe the bread and water in the sacrament is the Bread of Life and the Living Water. Many Catholics believe in transubstantiation. Others see other symbolic meaning in the sacrament or no meaning at all. Individual faith is individual, and I think a major theme in the recent changes is that we figure out what we individually believe for ourselves (Elder Bednar said as much just a few weeks ago).

So, if belief in a perfect Son of God Savior and perfect or near perfect prophets is what you need that's wonderful for you. If you believe otherwise and it works for you, that's also wonderful.
For now we see in a mirror, dimly [in a riddle], but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Jaxzmin801
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Re: Prophetic Flaws in Scripture

Post by Jaxzmin801 » 27 Apr 2019, 07:47

I love the different perspectives on this thread. For myself, I love words, they have great power so I like to look up their origins. The origin of the word perfect, actually means complete. In this sense, I can see that Jesus was perfect in that he completed the atonement. It also gives me hope when I read "be ye therefore perfect" I cannot be "perfect" by today's definition. I CAN, be complete, and I CAN complete the tasks given me. Such as caring for my children, supporting my husband, being a friend to those I love. In this sense, for me at least, the idea of being perfect is not stressful, but empowering. It also helps me see how flawed leaders may actually be the right person to accomplish a certain thing at a certain time, flawed though they may be.

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dande48
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Re: Prophetic Flaws in Scripture

Post by dande48 » 27 Apr 2019, 11:48

Jaxzmin801 wrote:
27 Apr 2019, 07:47
The origin of the word perfect, actually means complete.
I like that. :thumbup:
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

thegreythinker
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Re: Prophetic Flaws in Scripture

Post by thegreythinker » 27 Apr 2019, 17:10

Jaxzmin801 wrote:
27 Apr 2019, 07:47
I love the different perspectives on this thread. For myself, I love words, they have great power so I like to look up their origins. The origin of the word perfect, actually means complete. In this sense, I can see that Jesus was perfect in that he completed the atonement.
Thank you for sharing! I needed to hear this. Recently I've been struggling with my perspective of Jesus because my whole life I felt the church painted this picture of him as this perfect, humble, kind person while he was on the earth and that’s how I viewed him. Then this last week, I was studying Jesus last days for Easter when I came across the scriptures about him casting people out of the temple when he went to cleanse it, (if anyone’s wondering, it’s found in Matthew 21:12-16). After reading those verses I realized Jesus wasn’t perfect and I didn’t know how to view his life, but now after reading your post I feel like I’ve found my answer so thank you!
Jaxzmin801 wrote:
27 Apr 2019, 07:47
I cannot be "perfect" by today's definition. I CAN, be complete, and I CAN complete the tasks given me. Such as caring for my children, supporting my husband, being a friend to those I love. In this sense, for me at least, the idea of being perfect is not stressful, but empowering.
I love this. It's given be a different and better perspective of my life.

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rrosskopf
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Re: Prophetic Flaws in Scripture

Post by rrosskopf » 28 Apr 2019, 01:34

This is the Church of Jesus Christ of Imperfect Saints.

“Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” - John 6:71

Roy
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Re: Prophetic Flaws in Scripture

Post by Roy » 29 Apr 2019, 16:33

Daughter1 wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 20:11
Your mention of Jesus claiming perfection made me realize that He did claim perfection. But it also makes me modify my timeline for when He attained it. He only claims perfection after His resurrection. When He visits the Nephites and gives the Sermon on the Mount equivalent, He ends with the admonition to "be perfect even as I and your Father in Heaven are perfect." When He gives the original Sermon prior to His death, He only says "be perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect." So He is not perfect until after His death and resurrection. I think dande's point about Christ's thoughts on how we interpret His story today ties in really well with this, as well as Curt's point about the Atonement covering Christ too.
I personally view what is spoken by JC in the BoM to be JS putting words in Jesus' mouth. However, it is somewhat fascinating to me that the LDS church is somewhat of two minds on the issue of the perfection of Jesus. We believe that Jesus was perfect in that He was forever without sin. However, we also believe that he was imperfect in some ways that included his mortal condition with his ability to need food, to need rest, to grow and to learn, presumably to get sick occasionally, and to eventually die. In this way we tend to have the best of both docrinal worlds on the subject. Any verses that reference imperfections in Jesus are talking about his mortal condition. Any verses that talk about his perfection are talking about his sinlessness or his eventual resurection and/or exaltation. It is a fascinating way to harmonize seemingly contradictory scriptures.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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DarkJedi
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Re: Prophetic Flaws in Scripture

Post by DarkJedi » 29 Apr 2019, 17:22

I agree the God (perfect) Jesus and the human (imperfect?) Jesus are one of the many paradoxes in Mormonism and to some extent Christianity in general. There are Christians and some Mormons who see Jesus as fully God and fully human simultaneously. My own view is pretty close to that, I'm just not completely sure about the God part.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

Arrakeen
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Re: Prophetic Flaws in Scripture

Post by Arrakeen » 29 Apr 2019, 17:51

Daughter1 wrote:
23 Apr 2019, 20:22
"God wouldn't choose someone with a pride issue to lead His people. He would choose someone good!"
Sometimes I wonder where we get this idea that prophets need to be super-righteous spiritual giants. I guess it fits with our ideas about worthiness requirements for blessings, but it seems like many of the prophets in the scriptures (especially the Old Testament) are not what we would really call "righteous."

I've come to believe something that could be described as the "flawed, but useful" hypothesis for prophets. Instead of thinking that God strengthens prophets to overcome their weaknesses, I prefer to think that God uses prophets for what they're good at in spite of their weaknesses. For example, David clearly sinned, but he was a good political and military leader to build up the kingdom of Israel. I disagree with most of the doctrine Brigham Young taught, but he was a very strong leader for leading the saints across the plains and building a city from scratch. Nephi may have been an annoying self-righteous younger brother, but he was pretty good at building things like a bow and a boat to get his family to the promised land. Moses got himself into a lot of trouble, but he did have the guts to challenge Pharaoh and get the people out of Egypt.

I think maybe God doesn't even need prophets to be righteous. Maybe he just needs them to have certain skills at the right time for his purposes. I guess it's a pretty unorthodox opinion, but it helps me make sense of the behavior of prophets in the scriptures as well as in church history.

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Daughter1
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Re: Prophetic Flaws in Scripture

Post by Daughter1 » 29 Apr 2019, 20:53

Arrakeen wrote:
29 Apr 2019, 17:51
I've come to believe something that could be described as the "flawed, but useful" hypothesis for prophets. Instead of thinking that God strengthens prophets to overcome their weaknesses, I prefer to think that God uses prophets for what they're good at in spite of their weaknesses. For example, David clearly sinned, but he was a good political and military leader to build up the kingdom of Israel. I disagree with most of the doctrine Brigham Young taught, but he was a very strong leader for leading the saints across the plains and building a city from scratch. Nephi may have been an annoying self-righteous younger brother, but he was pretty good at building things like a bow and a boat to get his family to the promised land. Moses got himself into a lot of trouble, but he did have the guts to challenge Pharaoh and get the people out of Egypt.

I think maybe God doesn't even need prophets to be righteous. Maybe he just needs them to have certain skills at the right time for his purposes. I guess it's a pretty unorthodox opinion, but it helps me make sense of the behavior of prophets in the scriptures as well as in church history.
I love this idea. It's a great way of understanding why God put His trust in these people. It takes the idea from flawed individuals to the even more relatable reality that everyone has strengths and weaknesses. We cannot focus just on one or the other if we want to truly understand and appreciate the person. I started the thread because I think we often focus only on the strength whole ignoring the great lessons the weakness teaches. But I love even more your juxtaposition of the weakness alongside the strength. They couldn't have been the leaders they were without both.
I don't think there could ever be just one single philosophy or one single religion. Since there are so many different types of people, with a range of tendencies and inclinations, it is quite fitting that there are differences between religions. And the fact that there are so many different descriptions of the religious path shows how rich religion is. - HH the XIV Dalai Lama

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Prophetic Flaws in Scripture

Post by Curt Sunshine » 30 Apr 2019, 07:40

Arrakeen, that is an excellent summary of how I view Brigham Young: multiple, serious flaws but perhaps the only person who could have kept the early members together and actually built a lasting society in a wasteland.

That description doesn't depend on the truthfulness of the movement he led, so it allows me to try to be charitable regardless. Did "we" suffer as a result of his leadership? I believe so - but "we" survived to overcome those sufferings. That is not inconsequential; it is meaningful.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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