Joseph Smith Could Not Have Written the Book of Mormon

Public forum to discuss questions about Mormon history and doctrine.
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rrosskopf
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Re: Joseph Smith Could Not Have Written the Book of Mormon

Post by rrosskopf » 10 Apr 2019, 08:14

dande48 wrote:
10 Apr 2019, 07:40


We're going off of the word "probably" here, so I'm going to need something with > 70% certainty. You used a source from the 1940s, citing research funded by the Church for the sole purpose of "proving" what they already believe.

Well, it was another church, but point taken. And as the author pointed out, he started with the more complex symbols first. They don't look anything like English.
I do know of some similar characters found on Mesoamerican stella. I will look into that.
I know of at least one man who has claimed to have translated the Anthon script. He believes it was taken from the Book of Ether, and it talks about giant waves and such. I don't know enough about the subject matter to know if he is on the mark or not.

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rrosskopf
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Re: Joseph Smith Could Not Have Written the Book of Mormon

Post by rrosskopf » 10 Apr 2019, 08:30

I am new, and I really don't know the difference between vigorous discussion and argumentation. It seems to me that all discussions have people providing different points of view, and giving the reasons for such. What if we were discussing football? Or any other topic? I'm sorry if that sounds argumentative, but I really don't know the difference. I have no ill will for anyone. I just love the truth and the search for truth.

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dande48
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Re: Joseph Smith Could Not Have Written the Book of Mormon

Post by dande48 » 10 Apr 2019, 08:38

rrosskopf wrote:
10 Apr 2019, 08:14
I know of at least one man who has claimed to have translated the Anthon script. He believes it was taken from the Book of Ether, and it talks about giant waves and such. I don't know enough about the subject matter to know if he is on the mark or not.
I remember seeing a book a while back "Translating the Anthon transcript", which made that claim. The BYU Maxwell institute did a review on it, which they stated:
"I regret to report that Stan Johnson does not know Egyptian. Proof of this can be seen in the first two entries in his symbol reference (see p. 70); here the two "Egyptian" signs Johnson examined turn out to be parentheses from the dictionary Johnson was using. "
DarkJedi wrote:
10 Apr 2019, 08:02
[Moderator Note: Just another gentle reminder that discussion, even "vigorous" discussion, is great and welcome. Being that this is a written forum it is sometimes difficult to discern intent, intended meanings, and emotion. There is a fine line between vigorous discussion and argumentation. Let's do our best to stay on the civil discussion side of the line. Disagreement is fine and so is agreeing to disagree. This is not directed at rrosskopf, who is a newcomer and is still learning his way around, it goes for everyone including reminding myself.]
No hard feelings here, and I mean none towards rrosskopf. It's a good discussion, and has given me a good amount to think about. Not convinced, but I appreciate rrosskopf's willingness to back himself up. As with anything, when the information changes, or better evidence is brought to light, I update my conclusions. It is possible I am wrong, and I fully admit that. Rrosskopf has different information and experiences, so it is reasonable that he would come to different conclusions. I don't buy it, but that doesn't make his viewpoint any less valid.

FWIW, if the Anton Manuscript were proven to be authentic... that'd be pretty cool. :smile:
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

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rrosskopf
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Re: Joseph Smith Could Not Have Written the Book of Mormon

Post by rrosskopf » 10 Apr 2019, 08:54

dande48 wrote:
10 Apr 2019, 08:38
"I regret to report that Stan Johnson does not know Egyptian. Proof of this can be seen in the first two entries in his symbol reference (see p. 70); here the two "Egyptian" signs Johnson examined turn out to be parentheses from the dictionary Johnson was using. "
Oops! :lol:

Roy
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Re: Joseph Smith Could Not Have Written the Book of Mormon

Post by Roy » 10 Apr 2019, 12:22

rrosskopf wrote:
10 Apr 2019, 08:30
I am new, and I really don't know the difference between vigorous discussion and argumentation.
rrosskopf, The difference is generally in the presentation. Much is to be gained by prefacing a statement with "in my opinion". Also you can pepper your dialogue with variations on "I believe...", "I understand...", or "I take ____ to be evidence for....".


Please check out this link to the rules of Etiquette page: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=21
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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DarkJedi
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Re: Joseph Smith Could Not Have Written the Book of Mormon

Post by DarkJedi » 11 Apr 2019, 06:09

Roy wrote:
10 Apr 2019, 12:22
rrosskopf wrote:
10 Apr 2019, 08:30
I am new, and I really don't know the difference between vigorous discussion and argumentation.
rrosskopf, The difference is generally in the presentation. Much is to be gained by prefacing a statement with "in my opinion". Also you can pepper your dialogue with variations on "I believe...", "I understand...", or "I take ____ to be evidence for....".


Please check out this link to the rules of Etiquette page: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=21
Yep, I don't know for sure either but I do like to avoid contention and not have contention among others on the forum. Roy's advice is good, I went and re-read that myself and it was a good reminder. Other than that I think beating the dead horse, prolonged "yeah-huh! nu-uh!" (hat tip to Nibbler) or "Yeah, but...," using the canon as a cannon, or keeping at something when you know you aren't convincing the other person ("A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still") probably at least come close to the line.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Minyan Man
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Re: Joseph Smith Could Not Have Written the Book of Mormon

Post by Minyan Man » 11 Apr 2019, 08:10

I am really old (mid 70's). In the past few years I've been reading more of the parables in scripture. Some of the stories are real, others
are probably fictional. If the parables are fictional, does it really matter? The issue for me is: what principles of the gospel are being
taught?
I find myself using the same issue with the BoM. What principles are being taught? Do they conform to other scriptures?

Do you ever ask yourself:
- Jonah and the whale. Was it a true story?
- Abraham and Isaac. Was it a true story?
- Does it matter?

This can be very freeing too. I can use other sources or documents that may generally not be accepted by the majority at church.
I would never stand up in F&T meeting and say that.

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SamBee
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Re: Joseph Smith Could Not Have Written the Book of Mormon

Post by SamBee » 11 Apr 2019, 14:13

As I said elswhere, the important question is what the Book of Mormon means to us now individually, more so than its origin in some respects.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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SamBee
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Re: Joseph Smith Could Not Have Written the Book of Mormon

Post by SamBee » 11 Apr 2019, 14:15

Minyan Man wrote:
11 Apr 2019, 08:10
- Abraham and Isaac. Was it a true story?
In some senses, yes. It symbolizes Abraham moving away from the child sacrifice which was so common in the region.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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dande48
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Re: Joseph Smith Could Not Have Written the Book of Mormon

Post by dande48 » 11 Apr 2019, 14:28

Minyan Man wrote:
11 Apr 2019, 08:10
Do you ever ask yourself:
- Jonah and the whale. Was it a true story?
- Abraham and Isaac. Was it a true story?
- Does it matter?
If you use it allegorically, no. If you appeal to its authority and authenticity, yes. For example, in the story of Abraham, we learn that we should be prepared to do anything, including something we consider to be grossly immoral, because God told us to. Whether or not that story is true, impacts our receptiveness of the message it is trying to teach. If it is used to... as it was... convince others to participate in polygamy despite their moral reservations, I'd say that is pretty immoral. How would Joseph Smith have convinced so many to practice polygamy, if he appealed to the poly-amorous lifestyle of Zeus? People would ignore it.
Last edited by dande48 on 11 Apr 2019, 17:05, edited 1 time in total.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

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