The Church Purge of the Latter Days

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Daughter1
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Re: The Church Purge of the Latter Days

Post by Daughter1 » 05 Apr 2019, 21:12

I will start this by saying I have never been particularly interested in church history or the early teachings of the church. I only really go down that route when I have questions about where a current policy/practice/whatever came from. So I may be missing something that was taught more explicitly in earlier times. Additionally, I have never read anything by Lund. My opinion about LDS fiction is pretty low. I did read the Tennis Shoes series for a while (I know, different author, but I've heard comparisons multiple times). So take this with a grain of salt.

That said, I have studied the Book of Revelation carefully. It has always been one of my favorite books of scripture. I took a course at BYU all about it taught by the top LDS scholar on the topic. I have never heard of a "purge" of the church members. There will be trials. Some people will fall away. Some people will recognize the signs and come to the truth. Good people will die. Not only will they die, God will put them in positions where they will be killed as victims of the war specifically so he can use that fact in judgement against the evil forces. But nothing indicates that trials will be in place for the express purpose of purging the weak/wicked.

All this to say, I don't know if an opening and welcoming of others is really an indicator that the 2nd coming isn't still coming/coming soon. If anything, I would think it may indicate that we are preparing for that day. Trying to rally everyone to "the truth" so that we can have the strongest position possible in the coming war.
I don't think there could ever be just one single philosophy or one single religion. Since there are so many different types of people, with a range of tendencies and inclinations, it is quite fitting that there are differences between religions. And the fact that there are so many different descriptions of the religious path shows how rich religion is. - HH the XIV Dalai Lama

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DarkJedi
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Re: The Church Purge of the Latter Days

Post by DarkJedi » 06 Apr 2019, 03:44

dande48 wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 19:31
hawkgrrrl wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 18:04
Maybe if you only consider liquid assets. Have you not been to the Vatican? They are literally sitting on a stockpile of priceless artwork and statuary, to the point that a bunch of it is gathering dust in closets.
Accounting for land assets, temples, business, etc, we're sitting on ~$35Billion, and bring in an estimated $7 Billion a year. The Catholic Church's property and wealth is estimated only around $30 Billion. Tithing for Catholics is "pay if you can" and pretty open ended. They also spend a LOT more than we do; paying their preachers for one thing; There have been more than a few recent years when they're at a net loss. We only pay our GAs and Q15, and the rest is heavily tied up in business investments. Even building maintenance is kept at a minimum, with unpaid volunteers serving as janitors, tax exemptions, and only opening for a few hours a week.

Though in fairness, they all try to keep their true wealth a closely guarded secret. But even a rough ~$5Billion estimatd difference is still a LOT of wealth.
I don't think apples are being compared to apples in those two wealth "estimates." Just saying.

On topic, I also don't believe the Lord is about purging. Clearly you can cite scripture, but so could I if I had a mind to - for every scripture there is an equal and opposite scripture.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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SilentDawning
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Re: The Church Purge of the Latter Days

Post by SilentDawning » 06 Apr 2019, 09:18

DarkJedi wrote:
06 Apr 2019, 03:44
On topic, I also don't believe the Lord is about purging. Clearly you can cite scripture, but so could I if I had a mind to - for every scripture there is an equal and opposite scripture.
He did purge the earth with Noah's flood, and there is expected to be a purge before he comes a second time. But I agree the scriptures are slippery...full of contradictions so I'm not fully committed to either position on the purge issue. Just quoting what I read in the non-fiction book Lund wrote called The Coming of the Lord.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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Daughter1
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Re: The Church Purge of the Latter Days

Post by Daughter1 » 06 Apr 2019, 10:19

SilentDawning wrote:
06 Apr 2019, 09:18
He did purge the earth with Noah's flood, and there is expected to be a purge before he comes a second time. But I agree the scriptures are slippery...full of contradictions so I'm not fully committed to either position on the purge issue. Just quoting what I read in the non-fiction book Lund wrote called The Coming of the Lord.
I agree that purging is totally within historic context of divine prerogative. I just don't know of a prophecy that indicates it will be a central part of the run-up to the 2nd coming. And thank you for correcting me regarding the book. I only knew Lund as a fiction author and was not aware he had non-fiction work.
I don't think there could ever be just one single philosophy or one single religion. Since there are so many different types of people, with a range of tendencies and inclinations, it is quite fitting that there are differences between religions. And the fact that there are so many different descriptions of the religious path shows how rich religion is. - HH the XIV Dalai Lama

Curt Sunshine
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Re: The Church Purge of the Latter Days

Post by Curt Sunshine » 06 Apr 2019, 13:34

I will fix it. "It is recorded that God purged the Earth at the time of Noah's flood."

The difference is important. I don't believe God controls natural disasters and determiens who will be killed and who will live as a result of them. There are important lessons from mythological tales, but they are there whether they are accurate or not. I like them better when they are not literal, because I don't like what they teach about God.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

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SilentDawning
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Re: The Church Purge of the Latter Days

Post by SilentDawning » 06 Apr 2019, 14:35

Daughter1 wrote:
06 Apr 2019, 10:19
SilentDawning wrote:
06 Apr 2019, 09:18
He did purge the earth with Noah's flood, and there is expected to be a purge before he comes a second time. But I agree the scriptures are slippery...full of contradictions so I'm not fully committed to either position on the purge issue. Just quoting what I read in the non-fiction book Lund wrote called The Coming of the Lord.
I agree that purging is totally within historic context of divine prerogative. I just don't know of a prophecy that indicates it will be a central part of the run-up to the 2nd coming. And thank you for correcting me regarding the book. I only knew Lund as a fiction author and was not aware he had non-fiction work.
Gerald Lund was quoting scripture -- I don't like the idea of God burning all the wicked to stubble either as it sounds like some leader trying to change behavior by making God out to be a tyrant who punishes people heartlessly if they don't get behind the current program...

But I read the book cover to cover a few times, and there was a whole chapter, if memory serves,on how God was to visit the church first with tests that separate the sheep from the goats.

I don't read the apocalyptic scriptures much anymore, so my memory is fuzzy. Interested in knowing what others find...

SD
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

LadyofRadiantJoy
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Re: The Church Purge of the Latter Days

Post by LadyofRadiantJoy » 06 Apr 2019, 15:35

My theory with Joseph Smith is that sometimes when you see a vision of the infinite everything suddenly seems to be happening ultra fast, and from an infinite view, it is, but in our mortal view, it's actually generations, and so you come back thinking OMG GUYS IT"S HAPPENING. And it's like well,no, it takes generations to prepare,. And sometimes we see visions in a way that is relateable to us, so we see things that happen to us and to our families but it's not us now, or our families now, but our progeny or it's a metaphor of the things all families during that time will go through. But we don't ask questions we assume. When Nephi asks about his father's vision, he asks for the different meanings everything instead of making assumptions. We should do that for our own visions.

My Mom's theory is that the Savior would have returned IF Joseph Smith had lived and that all of us would have been born in the Millennium. I thought that was an interesting view.

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SamBee
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Re: The Church Purge of the Latter Days

Post by SamBee » 07 Apr 2019, 01:49

We already have had two - the 1978 proclamation got rid of some people and the more recent one on the children of gays haa got rid of people from the other end. In a broader sense, it could be said that modern life is leading folk out.

p.s. I actually think Lund is a very poor writer. I made the mistake of buying three of his books. He is no Dickens or Tolstoy.
Last edited by SamBee on 07 Apr 2019, 01:55, edited 1 time in total.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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SamBee
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Re: The Church Purge of the Latter Days

Post by SamBee » 07 Apr 2019, 01:52

hawkgrrrl wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 18:04
Dande48:
"did you know we are the richest religious organization on earth?"
Maybe if you only consider liquid assets. Have you not been to the Vatican? They are literally sitting on a stockpile of priceless artwork and statuary, to the point that a bunch of it is gathering dust in closets.
The Roman Catholics make the LDS look poor. They got all the spots in downtown before the LDS ever did.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Roy
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Re: The Church Purge of the Latter Days

Post by Roy » 08 Apr 2019, 12:19

dande48 wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 19:31
[/url]. The Catholic Church's property and wealth is estimated only around $30 Billion.
The article linked about Catholic assets states that the Catholic church has MORE THAN $30 Billion. That is a rather large range without a ceiling.
Daughter1 wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 21:12
I will start this by saying I have never been particularly interested in church history or the early teachings of the church. I only really go down that route when I have questions about where a current policy/practice/whatever came from. So I may be missing something that was taught more explicitly in earlier times.
The idea that the Lord will purge the church prior to the second coming comes from D&C 112:24-25.

Please see this link for an orthodox treatment of the topic from 1992: https://www.lds.org/study/ensign/1992/1 ... e?lang=eng

I find it interesting that the author of the linked article (which was published in the Ensign in 1992) refers to the "living prophet, President Ezra Taft Benson". This would seem to confirm that this is not a topic emphasized by the church much lately.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

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