After temple ordinances...am I done?

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DarkJedi
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Re: After temple ordinances...am I done?

Post by DarkJedi » 16 Feb 2019, 20:23

I've heard it said that as a covenant people we progress through the covenants. Baptism, priesthood, endowment, sealing (perhaps second anointing). There is also the covenant associated with the sacrament of the Lord's supper. I have heard it said that the "next covenant" for most of us is the weekly sacrament covenant. Thus, while it does not appear to be a commandment that we take the sacrament, apparently there are at least some leaders who believe regular partaking of the sacrament is a saving ordinance.

Of course that's all party line stuff and subject to individual understanding and belief. I don't buy all of it, but I do see value in the sacrament.

Just another sort of related comment. I think most of us do not really understand what enduring to the end means. I'm not going to profess to understand it, but whenever I hear it I always think "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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AmyJ
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Re: After temple ordinances...am I done?

Post by AmyJ » 18 Feb 2019, 07:53

I think that after the ordinances, a person's path becomes more individually focused and tailored to their situation - paradoxically, it gets hand-waved into "enduring to the end". So no, you are not "done" - your just in the land where the church can't guide your life as much as it used to because it now (theoretically) comes down to conversations between you and the Lord that act as catalysts for action.

Except when those conversations don't happen... at that point, you're left hanging like Adam was "waiting for the further light and knowledge"... in those times, I try to focus on becoming a better, more ethical person with less bad habits (that I define as bad habits worth changing - not necessarily what others or the church would define as bad habits). I think the church generally calls this "keeping the commandments" and there is a very long list of priorities and recommendations the church has (not to mention callings).

I try to focus on living the 2 great commandments - even though I am not sure how to Love God anymore. I can try to love others better (and tough love is a viable thing at times).

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SamBee
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Re: After temple ordinances...am I done?

Post by SamBee » 18 Feb 2019, 13:35

AmyJ wrote:
18 Feb 2019, 07:53
I try to focus on living the 2 great commandments - even though I am not sure how to Love God anymore. I can try to love others better (and tough love is a viable thing at times).
This is the best advice on here.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Roy
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Re: After temple ordinances...am I done?

Post by Roy » 18 Feb 2019, 13:36

Fantastic topic! Our family and SS study for the last week has been on being born again or born of water and of the spirit. What is meant by being born of the spirit? We know it is important because Jesus said so but how can I know if I have been reborn by the spirit or not? Nicademas was a leader in his church community and yet it appears that he had not yet been fully reborn of the spirit. Wouldn't it be great if there was some sort of check box ceremony that one could mark of to rest assured that they have met this prerequisite? Well now there is! We give all eight year olds and every convert a ritual that symbolizes the rebirth by the spirit.
Similarly, it seems that JS was trying for a time to bring the Saints to a point where they receive visions, visitations, and "the second comforter" for themselves. I understand that he eventually took that "endowment of power" and re-envisioned it into a ceremony that literally dramatized visitations from heavenly messengers and ultimately "making your calling and election sure." Now we can check those boxes too!
nibbler wrote:
16 Feb 2019, 07:56
I can't speak for the doctrines but personally, I'm done when I accept that I'm done. One of those contradiction things, I only obtain salvation after deciding to stop chasing it.
This really speaks to me. Most here know my faith crisis story that was precipitated by the stillbirth of our daughter. I was in grief and spiritual agony wondering if I had perhaps failed to secure the blessings to ensure a live birth. At one point I received a strong feeling or prompting that I was loved and accepted just as my stillborn daughter was loved and accepted. This was paradigm changing for me. Maybe, just maybe, my relationship with my Heavenly Parents was never in question. Maybe my failures and achievements are irrelevant in the face of such overwhelming love. I had been checking boxes trying earn God's love. What if all I had to do was turn to him and receive it as a free gift all along? (Aside #1: The other side of this is that maybe I have/had less control over the "blessings" and "trials" in my life than I had previously supposed.) (Aside #2: If little children are "alive in Christ" and exalted without having to do anything, why do we who think ourselves adults keep inventing hoops that we feel we need to jump through? Are we not all as little children of limited understanding compared to god?)

To bring this full circle and back to the nibbler quote, Maybe you "are done" when you feel that you are done. If salvation and grace are mental contructs then you can be saved when you feel like you are saved and you can arrive when you feel like you have arrived and you can become enlightened when you feel like you have become enlightened. If you want step by step intructions on how to get there then good for you - there is a plan for that. If you need something else or different to feel right with God then "good speed" to go after that thing. If you feel contented and at peace then take a moment to soak that up and just be.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

Curt Sunshine
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Re: After temple ordinances...am I done?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 18 Feb 2019, 20:55

Ordinance-wise: Yes.

Church-wise: That is your call, but, doctrinally, no.

Eternal progression-wise: Never.

The last one is my favorite and, to me, the most important. Theologically, it is the tie that binds us all, regardless of religious affiliation in mortality.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Rumin8
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Re: After temple ordinances...am I done?

Post by Rumin8 » 20 Feb 2019, 14:08

I love this question and I have taken a few days to think about it. Even though I have not articulated this to myself until relatively recently, I feel like I am done (ordinance-wise). This is one reason I found the temple (for me) to be reasonably worthless as a repeat experience. As for the ordinances for other people, should they not have the opportunity to choose for themselves in the next life? By doing their ordinances for them, am I not, in a way, removing their opportunity to experience these ordinances themselves?

As far as the rest of the church progression and for the rest of my life, my new paradigm is to be where I find meaning. For now (and hopefully for some time) that meaning is with a terrestrial level of adherence to CoJCoLDS theology.
"Moderation in all things, especially moderation." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

"Be excellent to each other." - Abraham Lincoln to Bill & Ted

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dande48
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Re: After temple ordinances...am I done?

Post by dande48 » 20 Feb 2019, 14:55

Rumin8 wrote:
20 Feb 2019, 14:08
As for the ordinances for other people, should they not have the opportunity to choose for themselves in the next life? By doing their ordinances for them, am I not, in a way, removing their opportunity to experience these ordinances themselves?
On the one hand, the Church teaches those in the next life have the choice to accept or reject the ordinances done by proxy in the next life. But only a fool and far few would reject them, since it's so obvious the LDS Church true on the other side.

But... if someone were to by proxy perform a religious ordinance like that for me, I'd be pretty ticked. Even if I didn't accept it, I'd find it insulting. And judging by the number of offenses the Church has committed by baptizing holocaust victims (just to give one example), I'd say most everyone else agrees.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

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-Lemony Snicket

Curt Sunshine
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Re: After temple ordinances...am I done?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 20 Feb 2019, 22:16

The disconnect that causes the anger for most people with regard to vicarious ordinace performace is the undertsandable confusion about the difference between it (truly voluntary acceptance or rejection) and typical Christian baptisms that are considered binding simply because they have been performed. We say baptism is a salvific ordinance, but we don't really believe that - since we believe plenty of people can be baptized and not be exalted and everyone will be saved in the end (minus a few sons of perdition). In Mormon theology, it isn't baptism that saves; it is a changed heart and subsequent progress symbolized by being baptized.

This isn't the post to discuss that threadjack, but feel free, anyone, to start another thread about it.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

LadyofRadiantJoy
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Joined: 12 Jul 2018, 09:41

Re: After temple ordinances...am I done?

Post by LadyofRadiantJoy » 24 Feb 2019, 15:41

Roy wrote:
18 Feb 2019, 13:36

This really speaks to me. Most here know my faith crisis story that was precipitated by the stillbirth of our daughter. I was in grief and spiritual agony wondering if I had perhaps failed to secure the blessings to ensure a live birth. At one point I received a strong feeling or prompting that I was loved and accepted just as my stillborn daughter was loved and accepted. This was paradigm changing for me. Maybe, just maybe, my relationship with my Heavenly Parents was never in question. Maybe my failures and achievements are irrelevant in the face of such overwhelming love. I had been checking boxes trying earn God's love. What if all I had to do was turn to him and receive it as a free gift all along? (Aside #1: The other side of this is that maybe I have/had less control over the "blessings" and "trials" in my life than I had previously supposed.) (Aside #2: If little children are "alive in Christ" and exalted without having to do anything, why do we who think ourselves adults keep inventing hoops that we feel we need to jump through? Are we not all as little children of limited understanding compared to god?)
I gotta say, I love your asides there. We are told to "be as little children" too which dovetails nicely with Aside #2.

LadyofRadiantJoy
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Re: After temple ordinances...am I done?

Post by LadyofRadiantJoy » 24 Feb 2019, 15:47

Curt Sunshine wrote:
20 Feb 2019, 22:16
The disconnect that causes the anger for most people with regard to vicarious ordinace performace is the undertsandable confusion about the difference between it (truly voluntary acceptance or rejection) and typical Christian baptisms that are considered binding simply because they have been performed. We say baptism is a salvific ordinance, but we don't really believe that - since we believe plenty of people can be baptized and not be exalted and everyone will be saved in the end (minus a few sons of perdition). In Mormon theology, it isn't baptism that saves; it is a changed heart and subsequent progress symbolized by being baptized.

This isn't the post to discuss that threadjack, but feel free, anyone, to start another thread about it.
My issue is why the hell are we sealing people who got divorced just because they had kids together? I have had a visitation from the spirit of a family member who explicitly told me she didn't want to be sealed to her husband. I had to remind my family YET AGAIN, that the answer is no, don't do it, but we get all gung ho and just do all the sealings as if it doesn't matter when it clearly does. We're really good at brushing off people's feelings. Abusive parents? Oh it doesn't matter we will all be perfect when we're all exalted. Abusive spouse? Oh it doesn't matter endure to the end to keep the family together, we will all be perfect when we're all exalted. Spirit visitation that says NO? Oh, what if she changes her mind, what if you're being deceived, it will all work out in the Millenium anyway and we will all be perfect when we're exalted. UGH. We sure know how to take a beautiful doctrine and turn it into poison.

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