Word of Wisdom: The next change

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SilentDawning
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Re: Word of Wisdom: The next change

Post by SilentDawning » 13 Jan 2019, 03:08

I always felt hot drinks referred to alcohol. An 18th Century dictionary or writings might illuminate that further, but the rule seems a bit silly to me too now. I abide by the WoW. I can't seem to let that one go, but I would probably have a cuppa java if the rule was relaxed. We already drink Coke and other products without jeopardizing our WoW status, so I don't see what the big deal is.

But for now, I'm going to keep the WoW as given.

BTW, they have legalized marijuana in Canada, where I have relatives. I think that presents another challenge for saints in that country. I know that legalization doesn't relax the WoW, but it certainly removes legal consequences for disobeying it.
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Curt Sunshine
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Re: Word of Wisdom: The next change

Post by Curt Sunshine » 13 Jan 2019, 09:15

Actually, legalization does relax the WofW, since the standard has been a generic "illegal drugs".

I don't think the top church leaders want to have to provide a detailed list of which drugs can and cannot be used. That would be nightmare.
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mom3
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Re: Word of Wisdom: The next change

Post by mom3 » 13 Jan 2019, 11:41

BTW, they have legalized marijuana in Canada, where I have relatives. I think that presents another challenge for saints in that country. I know that legalization doesn't relax the WoW, but it certainly removes legal consequences for disobeying it.
It's been legal in my state for 4 years. And yes that changes the dynamic. The church has a new hurdle to climb (if it wants to). Even in Utah, the church shifted it's stance quite a bit during the election.

The SDA's softened their WoW a few years ago. Theirs looked very much like ours. Where Coffee and Tea is our big weird one. Eating meat was theirs. They also were opposed to Coffee and Tea - hence the creation of Postum. A congregant of theirs created it. Smoking, etc. As they were shrinking in numbers, they moved the decimal a bit.

They still list the same health code, but have softened the rhetoric to "striving for". It's helped a lot. Now people who are "working towards" or are less obedient can still come to church and the long term members shun less. They may gossip behind their backs, but the SDA numbers are climbing because they continue to encourage their health code - and it is a good one. They have the legitimacy of creating hospitals, and having many parishioners in the medical field, so it works.

I think the idea mentioned above about rolling it back to "guideline" like Joseph wrote, would be the safest thing to do.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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dande48
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Re: Word of Wisdom: The next change

Post by dande48 » 13 Jan 2019, 14:01

mom3 wrote:
13 Jan 2019, 11:41
It's been legal in my state for 4 years. And yes that changes the dynamic. The church has a new hurdle to climb (if it wants to). Even in Utah, the church shifted it's stance quite a bit during the election.
In Utah, at least with the legislation, the Q15 has been pretty clear on their stance. They are supportive of medical MJ, but are weary of its abuse and against any recreational abuse. There's also been a pretty big issue with opiod abuse in Utah, which usually starts legal, but then often transitions to illegal, since heroin is somehow cheaper. I wouldn't quite say legal/illegal is the line the Church draws. We've been against any illegal activity, whether or not its against the WoW.

It's dependant on use and purpose. I even remember, many years ago, a member of the Church who got stake approval to drink wine for medical reasons and was still allowed a TR. Addiction, substance dependancy, and the loss of mental acuity are all things the Church wishes to avoid. Humans are not very good when it comes to moderation, temperance, or self control. They do some REALLY stupid things.
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Gerald
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Re: Word of Wisdom: The next change

Post by Gerald » 13 Jan 2019, 15:02

It feels like the WoW needs a refresh. It feels out of balance. Now, we could take the tack of making it more strict. Add lots of stuff to the prohibited list like soda, energy drinks, sugar, salt, etc. Or we could relax it a little, remove coffee and tea and turn the law into one of moderation in all things. Don't go nuts on the coffee, don't go nuts on the tea, don't go nuts on the sodas. Find a balance. We will no longer police, we can't police your balance. If we want to live higher laws we've got to start trusting people to live their balance. Insisting on total abstinence and policing it feels like the opposite of trust.
I like the idea of a "refresh" but I'm not sure what it should look like. Diets and the availability of certain foods has changed dramatically since the original WOW revelation and a review might not be bad. As for eliminating coffee and tea, hmmm...not sure how I feel about that one. If such restrictions were eliminated, not sure I'd jump on that bandwagon. For the record, I feel the restrictions on alcohol and tobacco have always been pretty sensible.
So through the dusk of dead, blank-legended And unremunerative years we search to get where life begins, and still we groan because we do not find the living spark where no spark ever was; and thus we die, still searching, like poor old astronomers who totter off to bed and go to sleep, to dream of untriangulated stars.
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mom3
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Re: Word of Wisdom: The next change

Post by mom3 » 13 Jan 2019, 15:33

I like the idea of a "refresh" but I'm not sure what it should look like. Diets and the availability of certain foods has changed dramatically since the original WOW revelation and a review might not be bad.
Add to that our global church and the availability or nonavailability of certain foods and drinks.

Tea gets so dicey. Is it herbal only? Is Chia ok? Green leaf or black leaf? Now move to Cambodia or African Outback people who throw tons of stuff into limited water and live off the substance?

Healthy continues to change. Refrigeration changes.

I can see an overhaul that opens the door to personal moderation.

As to alcohol and other addictive substances, I get the point, but sugar works like heroin. Those candy bars, snack packs, donuts - all of them are driven by a chemical craving. Now they don't impair your brain like alcohol, heroin and other substances, but the way we Westerners live on it that can't be healthy either.

I never imagined the church to change the temple this much. Or any of the other things like 2 hour church. So maybe the WoW will get one, too.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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SamBee
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Re: Word of Wisdom: The next change

Post by SamBee » 13 Jan 2019, 15:53

DarkJedi wrote:
12 Jan 2019, 19:48
SamBee wrote:
12 Jan 2019, 18:04
It's barely a requirement now for baptism. How long do you have to observe it to get baptized? A week? Not long at all.
I think it depends on the mission. Last I knew it was 3 weeks here. (That's what it was on my mission, but my mission was on another planet that existed before the Earth and the Earth is made from parts of it - like the dinosaur bones and footprints :D ).
It is, or was, really short here. A week is doable for a lot of things, but try a month! The amount of times I've tried to help people quit smoking, it's really hard at least to begin with.

We had one new convert really struggle with giving up tea too by the way. She started getting really bad headaches. Sometimes you have to reduce intake rather than just suddenly quitting when you are dependent on something.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
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dande48
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Re: Word of Wisdom: The next change

Post by dande48 » 13 Jan 2019, 17:08

mom3 wrote:
13 Jan 2019, 15:33
As to alcohol and other addictive substances, I get the point, but sugar works like heroin. Those candy bars, snack packs, donuts - all of them are driven by a chemical craving. Now they don't impair your brain like alcohol, heroin and other substances, but the way we Westerners live on it that can't be healthy either.
Lol. The greatest evidence I see that the WoW wasn't "given by God as revelation", was the fact that sugar is omitted. Talk about "In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days..." something God should've/would've "warned and forewarned" us about. We're all super addicted to it, but with the constant intake and place into EVERYTHING (because its freakin addicting and food companies know it), we have a hard time recognizing what a terrible drug it is.
Last edited by dande48 on 13 Jan 2019, 17:13, edited 2 times in total.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

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dande48
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Re: Word of Wisdom: The next change

Post by dande48 » 13 Jan 2019, 17:11

SamBee wrote:
13 Jan 2019, 15:53
We had one new convert really struggle with giving up tea too by the way. She started getting really bad headaches. Sometimes you have to reduce intake rather than just suddenly quitting when you are dependent on something.
I'd bet anything, that's the caffeine for ya! It's another thing that can be useful in small doses, specifically to treat certain medical conditions. But are people good at being "temperate" with it? Certainly not!
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
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Rumin8
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Re: Word of Wisdom: The next change

Post by Rumin8 » 13 Jan 2019, 18:58

It’s fascinating for me to see the range of opinions on this topic by a bunch of nuanced members like ourselves. I find it constructive and uplifting. I love the concept of teaching the concepts and allowing us to govern ourselves. The whole sugar vs coffee thing (as an example) illustrates this point. We have been so focused on the so-called spiritual consequences of the WoW that we ignore the temperal dangers of substances not explicitly mentioned in D&C89 or from the pulpit. Look at the booming soda and cookie market in SLC if you don’t believe me.

Coincidentally for me, the last few years I have limited my sugar intake while starting to drink low to moderate amounts of items prohibited by the current interpretation of the WoW. I rarely drink soda of any kind. Through that and more occasional exercise, my weight has dropped by nearly 10%. I’m at my lowest weight I’ve recorded in over 10 years. I was never overweight per se, but I definitely feel better now and have much better energy and mental health.

Perhaps on balance that is a healthier lifestyle for me? Everyone is different. I recognize that. Even my non-believer friends and relatives have strong opinions in tea, coffee, and alcohol. So it’s not a religious thing with them, but they educate, experiment, and with that information finally govern themselves.

One last thought: A few people have mentioned the changing stance of the church on medical marijuana in Utah. I am somewhat connected to the political scene in Utah. I am familiar with some, but not all of the public and private negotiations that have been going on with this issue. For the last 3-5 years there have been decent med marijuana bills presented to the state legislature. Each year, the church has opposed it. Not openly, but through it’s paid lobbyist. Each year these bills were defeated. Many legislators for good or Ill look to the church for guidence whether or not the church actually has a position on the issue. In this case, Only when the marijuana initiative made the ballot and polling showed even a majority of active fully participating LDS members supported the proposition did the church change stance. Coincidence or change of heart? You judge.

The so-called compromise that has us where we are today is a real mess. And will not work well without modification. (To be fair the marijuana proposition was a mess too). I know people who are in real need of this who will still go to Nevada or Colorado for recreational product to use medically because what we have now has so many hoops to jump through. It’s mind boggling.

Please let us govern ourselves according to our conscience.
"Moderation in all things, especially moderation." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

"Be excellent to each other." - Abraham Lincoln to Bill & Ted

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