Two Hour Church

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Minyan Man
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Re: Two Hour Church

Post by Minyan Man » 08 Oct 2018, 11:00

Are we saying that a drop in activity & attendance at meetings was built into the decision to go to Two Hours?

I am coming to the conclusion that I really don't like change.
This seems to open the door for criticism that says, we're not doing something right again.
Either "Ministering", Fellowshipping, or spiritually developing myself & my family.

I want change & then when it happens, I'm critical or skeptical.
They can put that on my tombstone.

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nibbler
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Re: Two Hour Church

Post by nibbler » 08 Oct 2018, 11:30

We're playing to the lowest common denominator again, aren't we?

If there's a three hour block there's an expectation that people attend all three hours. People simply won't give themselves permission to only attend two hours of church, heck they may even be hounded to attend that 3rd hour.

But if there's two hour church then the expectation is only two hours. If people want to do more church, maybe have an informal study group that meets for a 3rd hour after the two hour block is up, they can do that, but it's not the expectation of every member.
It is said an Eastern monarch once charged his wise men to invent him a sentence to be ever in view, and which should be true and appropriate in all times and situations. They presented him the words, "And this too, shall pass away." How much it expresses! How chastening in the hour of pride! How consoling in the depths of affliction!
― Abraham Lincoln

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dande48
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Re: Two Hour Church

Post by dande48 » 08 Oct 2018, 11:31

Minyan Man wrote:
08 Oct 2018, 11:00
Are we saying that a drop in activity & attendance at meetings was built into the decision to go to Two Hours?
I am saying that. :)
Minyan Man wrote:
08 Oct 2018, 11:00
I am coming to the conclusion that I really don't like change.
This seems to open the door for criticism that says, we're not doing something right again.
Either "Ministering", Fellowshipping, or spiritually developing myself & my family.
I think that's the nature of growth and change, especially in a Church which claims divine revelation. The truth is, I think President Nelson and the whole of the Church leadership is trying to figure things out. We've got problems, and there are no straightforward solutions. Just as it leaves the door open for criticism of us, so it also leaves the door open from criticism of the Church. But I think we all need to stop thinking of what is "right" or "wrong" and instead focus on what is "better" or "worse".
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

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Heber13
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Re: Two Hour Church

Post by Heber13 » 08 Oct 2018, 14:22

I would think attendance would INCREASE.

Perhaps it is a net increase, which is painful or sad for some, better for others.

My equation:

All the active folks that as nibbler said do what is told (attend 3 hr block or 2 hr block)

+(Plus) People who were burned out in nursery or other callings that couldn't bring themselves to staying 3 hours and out of guilt jsut would skip it all but now they can come for 2 hours and feel better about it.

-(Less) Those that are on the fringe that want the 3 hours and now are offended and won't come to 2 hour church and get enough or make it worth their while...so now they just don't come at all, or perhaps just don't feel needed in a 2 hour format and just go inactive.

= Net Gain (loss)

i would think there are more that would attend 2 hour blocks than 3 hour blocks, and there is a net gain. Just guessing.

Change is never easy, and never seems to be exactly what we wanted it to be. You travel through the valley of despair, until sometimes we see it is going to be better after all, and we move from laggards in accepting change to going along with the innovators who embraced it from the start.

It is proven that different personalities accept change at different rates and under different conditions. It is never easy. Hopefully it is worth it.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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mom3
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Re: Two Hour Church

Post by mom3 » 08 Oct 2018, 22:36

30+ years ago when the church moved to the 3 hour block system, there was a standard explanation that "the church" was moving us toward a time when we would be doing our "churching" at home with a group of members for a Family Home Evening or Religious study group, and the sacrament. I heard it from institute teachers, HC, Bishops. I gave up believing it would happen decades ago.

Suddenly, they may have been right.

Back then part of the reasoning was the challenge of members having buildings they could attend. The church wasn't building the local buildings - individual wards and stakes did that. Sometimes, even in the United States, members had to drive a long way to get to the nearest meeting house. As a nation we were just coming out of the gas and energy recession.

To me this is just a long, long term planning fulfillment. Nothing more. They may have better leverage points, i.e. cramming 4 wards into a building, getting callings fulfilled that have been a bugger to fill, and the rest.

World wide, weekly church attendance is sliding. It's not just millennials. In our stake, the retiree's are often the ones to limit their church commitments.

I like the present plan. I would love a Sacrament Meeting only plan. But humans need community. Two hours gives us that. What remains to be seen is how this comes off. The original block program was set to be a Sunday only church for us. It was a great plan for Utah and Idaho. Not such a great plan for the mission field members. About 6 months into the "So let it be written. So let it be done" phase, the necessity of having mid week event was reinstated. We may find there are few more twists as it rolls out.

I just hope we stack the wards back to back and have all Sunday church ending by 1:00.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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On Own Now
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Joined: 18 Jan 2012, 12:45

Re: Two Hour Church

Post by On Own Now » 09 Oct 2018, 07:28

I'm surprised and elated by this change. Thank you RMN/FP/Q12!
"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." --Romans 14:13

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Heber13
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Location: In the Middle

Re: Two Hour Church

Post by Heber13 » 11 Oct 2018, 12:37

mom3 wrote:
08 Oct 2018, 22:36
World wide, weekly church attendance is sliding. It's not just millennials. In our stake, the retiree's are often the ones to limit their church commitments.
From what you can see...do you think this change will help build attendance to sacrament meetings?
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Two Hour Church

Post by Curt Sunshine » 11 Oct 2018, 13:47

I don't think it can hurt.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Minyan Man
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Joined: 15 Sep 2011, 13:40

Re: Two Hour Church

Post by Minyan Man » 11 Oct 2018, 15:22

I believe it could based on what I've stated previously. This change seems to be designed to help middle class (& upper class) families.
Anyone who is poor, elderly or minority may feel left out socially. This is one hour less social contact for them & the church.
Some may argue that this is where "ministry" fills in the gap by taking them to church. I hope it does.
As stated before: I know there are members in our ward who travel 45-60 min each way on public transportation for (now) one less hour of contact.
There are some who won't let us come to their homes because of safety issues, embarrassment or something else unstated.

My fears maybe all for nothing. I hope it is.

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mom3
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Joined: 02 Apr 2011, 14:11

Re: Two Hour Church

Post by mom3 » 11 Oct 2018, 17:03

My area is more upper middle class, I think at first there maybe an increase. Just like with changing the missionary age, but over time I think it will drop. That said, I think it would have dropped anyway. People have churched for a very long time, it isn't what it used to be. We don't socialize on Sunday. We move from meeting to meeting, sit in repeat - regurgitated lessons, and have more stressful lives. It just gets easier to swap out Sunday's. Even from devout people. So many of my friends have 5 or 6 married kids they visit that they are in and out of town on a rotating basis. I believe they do attend church with their kids when they are in town, but that limits them having a home base for callings, etc.

I could be totally wrong.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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