Everybody Poops

[dande48]

I've read that stuff. Completely different character. The infancy gospels are amongst the most dubious... and I think the nativity scenes in the Gospels are the most mythological part of the canonical gospels.

They are a little dubious, but the books which wound up in the bible were chosen by the Catholics, and more than a little edited, judging by our earliest records. I strongly believe that Christianity adopted Grecian/Roman paganism into its teachings and practice. When Jesus was crucified, do you know who held the titles of "The Son of God", the Christ, savior of the world, redeemer of mankind? Caesar Augustus. Jesus' name was actually Joshua, but no one recognizes "Joshua the Messiah" anymore. I also wonder, with all due respect to those who believe differently, if when Jesus declared he was the Son of God, he meant it in the way Jews often meant it at the time, or how we mean it today ("I am a child of God"). To express familiarity and devotion with the creator, instead of a literal, biological relation like the Romans used. The Roman story for Augustus' parentage is eerily similar to Christ. Apollo impregnated Atia through "immaculate conception" more or less, who gave birth to Augustus, who was hailed with great signs in the heavens and a new star. The gentiles too often deified their leaders and heroes.

Which is also why, the child Jesus in the Gnostic gospels nicely fits into the"child trickster god" trope found in most pagan myths.

[SamBee]

No, not the Catholics. They didn't exist then in the modern sense...

[Sheldon]

Curt, are you defending Trump???

[dande48]

No, not the Catholics. They didn't exist then in the modern sense...

The first council to officially declare the books which make up our New Testament to be Canon, the Synod of Hippo, was lead by St. Augustine of Hippo in 393 AD. Augustine used the term "Catholic" to distinguish his Christianity, from all other heretical denominations.

"For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church."

[SamBee]

The Roman Catholics like to claim the early Christian fathers, but anyone before the 600s barely qualifies as such. They never had the level of central control or influence, priests could marry, most of the contemporary monastic movements or the likes of the Jesuits were long into the future.

[dande48]

The Roman Catholics like to claim the early Christian fathers, but anyone before the 600s barely qualifies as such. They never had the level of central control or influence, priests could marry, most of the contemporary monastic movements or the likes of the Jesuits were long into the future.

Isn't that like saying early Church leaders weren't really Latter-day Saints? All churches evolve. But even still, I don't think your arguments are accurate.
-Bishops, Priests, and all clerics were barred from marriage in 305AD.
-St. Anthony established monasticism for the Church in 305AD.
-The Nicean Creed was made in 325AD.
-Augustine himself established the doctrine of "Original Sin".
-There was a central authority, the Pope, Father Victor I. Many creeds and councils were established to decide on doctrine, including the Synod of Hippo, which canonized our modern bible.

Still, define them how you will, the pregenitors of Catholics, who identified as Catholics, under what they held to be Catholic authority, and led by the Pope Father Victor, decided what would be considered canon and what wouldn't.

[SamBee]

The Roman Catholics like to claim the early Christian fathers, but anyone before the 600s barely qualifies as such. They never had the level of central control or influence, priests could marry, most of the contemporary monastic movements or the likes of the Jesuits were long into the future.

Isn't that like saying early Church leaders weren't really Latter-day Saints? All churches evolve. But even still, I don't think your arguments are accurate.
-Bishops, Priests, and all clerics were barred from marriage in 305AD.
-St. Anthony established monasticism for the Church in 305AD.
-The Nicean Creed was made in 325AD.
-Augustine himself established the doctrine of "Original Sin".
-There was a central authority, the Pope, Father Victor I. Many creeds and councils were established to decide on doctrine, including the Synod of Hippo, which canonized our modern bible.

Still, define them how you will, the pregenitors of Catholics, who identified as Catholics, under what they held to be Catholic authority, and led by the Pope Father Victor, decided what would be considered canon and what wouldn't.

Priests and monks were marrying far later than that even in the west - and surnames reflect that e.g. Abbott, MacNab, Haggarty etc. In Eastern areas which would later separate in the Schism, they've always been able to marry.

The Pope was often ignored until the Middle Ages. The Crusades consolidated their control but even that was not total.

Also you'll note I say *contemporary* monastic orders. Not those of the first millenium but the Franciscans, Dominicans and Augustinians.

A lot of distinctly RC doctrine is of surprisingly recent origin or approval e.g. the idea of the immaculate conception of Mary, which underpins Mariolotary, was only rubber stamped in the 1850s, well.after the Reformation and after the foundation of the LDS! Much of contemporary Roman Catholicism is influenced by the Reformation which forced the church of Rome to a) try and put its house in order and b) maintain better control.

----

The current LDS bears little resemblence to the church of Joseph or even Brigham.

The successor who most resembled Joseph Smith was Strang not Young, but still Young was much closer to JS than the current church. Think of all the other major differences - the lack of new revealed works or mysticism, no Gathering to Zion, gerontocracy, monogamy, correlation, incorporation into the mainstream etc. Early Mormonism lived on the edge, modern Mormonism wants desperately to be mainstream.

[Reuben]

Guys. This is a thread to talk about poop.

[SamBee]

Guys. This is a thread to talk about poop.

[NightSG]

-Bishops, Priests, and all clerics were barred from marriage in 305AD.
-St. Anthony established monasticism for the Church in 305AD.
-The Nicean Creed was made in 325AD.

...and pretty much tossed the idea of celibate clergy. As a result, it was generally ignored for another 800 years before finally being codified in 1139.